Thursday, April 7, 2011

Space Warfare XIV: Things As They Ought To Be


At 100 kilometers per second, any object - be it a depleted-uranium slug, a carton of skim milk, or a throw pillow - packs kinetic energy equal to 5 gigajoules per kg, equivalent to 1195 kg of TNT, rather more than a ton of bang. In space the bang will be soundless, but it will still hurt.

(Someone in the back raises their hand to ask, '100 km/s relative to what?' For purpose of this discussion the answer is 'relative to whatever it hits.' And you should have figured that out on your own.)

This is the basis for kinetic weapons in space warfare. To regular readers of this blog it is no news; in particular I discussed kinetics in two segments of this series of posts. (Though the specific form of killer bus I described in the second post is a bad idea.)

I bring kinetics up again because they were long my weapon of preference for space warfare, for at least three distinct reasons, distinct in addressing different aspects of the overall problem:

1 - Missiles in space have effectively unlimited range, more than even Ravening Beams of Death.

2 - If you have the space technology to put large numbers of people in space, you pretty definitionally have the capability to throw lots of luggage, and throw it fast.

3 - There is reasonable scope for tactical maneuver in kinetics-dominant space combat, something that (it seems to me) is much harder to get in laser combat.

You may note that these three justifications are ranked by increasing meta-ness. The first is a general consequence of space speeds. The second hints at future history.

Any spacefaring society on a grand enough scale to have grand space battles has put generations or centuries of major effort into its overall space technology, whether its past has been peaceful or warlike. Long range lasers probably have more limited and mainly military applications. (Extensive use of laser propulsion does change this equation.) As a point of comparison, in the 19th century military technology tended to adopt new civil technologies, rather than being a primary driving force in itself.

The third point is most shamelessly meta. The people who fight wars are not concerned to make them interesting; that is only of concern to people inventing them in order to write about them.


Thus my picture of kinetic space warfare was kinetic in style as well as in weaponry. My starting point was the observation that if two ships are armed with similar-performance missiles, the more maneuverable ship has a crucial advantage. It can (at least in principle) maneuver to evade an enemy's missile, while the more sluggish enemy ship cannot quite evade its own missile.

Multi-ship tactics also look potentially complex - and therefore interesting. Ships maneuver like (3-D, vector) polo ponies to line up shots at opponents while avoiding the enemy's shots. The worst position a ship can be in is dynamically surrounded, so that a burn that carries it away from one enemy's missile envelope takes it right into another's.

The second worst position a ship can be in is to make a burn that accidentally carries it out of the fight at the point of decision, allowing the enemy to defeat its consorts in detail.

Lasers, in my vision, were purely secondary and defensive, intended for last ditch defense against incomings. There was a serious question in my mind whether a defensive laser armament was even worth carrying - the extra mass of a laser battery would mean reduced missile firepower, more sluggish performance, or both.

In this thumbnail description it sounds much like space fighters dogfighting, though the scale of the thing was such that battles would unfold over hours or days, even weeks.


I have not put any numbers to all this, except for the ones I gave at the very beginning, implying combat encounter speeds on order of 100 km/s. When I first came up with this image of space battles my assumptions were EXTREMELY operatic, as in photon drives with multi-g accelerations. Eventually I worked my way down to mere fusion torches in the low terawatt range.

A variety of holes, of various gauge, can be punched or burned through this vision of space combat, but it still represents one variation on the theme of what we all want for story purposes, Cool Space Battles.


I eventually abandoned this conception. Not because the propulsion was still operatic even in its later, more modest forms - any setting where you have space battles at all, other than near-Earth encounters in a primarily terrestrial war, is at least demi-operatic. But I came to suspect that the laser assumptions I was making were conservative out of all proportion to the propulsion assumption, yielding the equivalent of ships with gas turbine engines and smoothbore muzzle loaders.

By no means is that certain to be the case. Lasers and space propulsion are not inherently linked technologies (though under some assumptions they would be). And there is plenty of experience to show that battle performance of weapons often falls short of bench test performance, sometimes dramatically so. But I came to feel that it was special pleading to assume as much, and ended up with laserstars, as I have described them in prior installments of this series.

At some future point I might change my mind again.


Discuss. (Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!)



The somewhat retro image is from Atomic Rockets - read also the discussion on the linked page.

418 comments:

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Rick said...

Dear me, what have I started?

I think I need to go re-read Tales from the White Hart.

Anonymous said...

On a Venus-like world, it would be difficult, but not impossible, to get at minerals on the surface, while living in floating cities...zepplins or blimps would be an ecomonic way of hauling people and goods between cities. "Nations" would be city-states or groups of city-states, with all the politics and difficulties that go with large human communities. It seems like a great setting to have fun with!

Ferrell

jollyreaper said...


On a Venus-like world, it would be difficult, but not impossible, to get at minerals on the surface, while living in floating cities...zepplins or blimps would be an ecomonic way of hauling people and goods between cities. "Nations" would be city-states or groups of city-states, with all the politics and difficulties that go with large human communities. It seems like a great setting to have fun with!


Here's the dynamic I'm thinking of (still sticking with the habitable gas giant model.)

Given the lack of availability of decent fuel stocks in the atmosphere, pretty much the only affordable way of getting on and off the planet is via the beanstalks. Sure, a shuttle could work but it would need a decent place to land and it's not advisable to plunk something firing jets down onto a raft of floating cloud coral that's basically just a giant wad of soap bubbles.

So, the beanstalks have an upwell and a downwell terminal. The high mucky-mucks for the extraction companies live upwell in extravagant luxury. The downwell station represents the biggest cities "on" the planet.

The mining operations themselves would involve using floating platforms dropping giant hoseworks down into the heart of the planet to pull up the mcguffinite. The platforms are operated away from the beanstalk since the mining process can produce atmospheric disturbances (setting off psuedo-volcanic eruptions that blast material into orbit.) Consequently, the mines are kept far away from the beanstalk terminals.

Now the final little tidbit would be the whole part about the beanstalks being the only way offworld. With the possibility of living off the -- well, not exactly land -- living off the cloud? With the ability to do so and with mining being such a ruinously tedious activity, there will be many defectors. They'll join with the indigenous population. They can't just leave the planet because they wouldn't be granted passage up the stalk.

The more I think about the setting, the more I think that cloud madness would really set in. Looking down and seeing nothing but roiling clouds or, in really clear zones, a clear shot down into the white heart of the planet, the glaring core of whirling heat.

I know that fantasy settings have played with the idea, either sky cities above a regular continent or worlds with no land at all. The first book of the Death Gate Cycle (D&D writers working in their own world) was like this.

Milo said...

Jollyreaper:

"Given the lack of availability of decent fuel stocks in the atmosphere,"

Wait, wait, wasn't access to fusion fuel the main motivator for going to gas giants in the first place?

And hydrogen is pretty good reaction mass.

In a gas giant, you can literally pull decent fuel stocks out of thin air.

(Assuming you have working fusion, anyway, but I thought that was a given with the whole "whimsical take on popular culture depictions of the future" theme.)


"The high mucky-mucks for the extraction companies live upwell in extravagant luxury."

Why would economic segregation be vertical, aside from the symbolism?


"The platforms are operated away from the beanstalk since the mining process can produce atmospheric disturbances (setting off psuedo-volcanic eruptions that blast material into orbit.)"

Can you at least try to have your atmospheric disturbances be something, you know, atmospheric? Like a hurricane?


"They can't just leave the planet because they wouldn't be granted passage up the stalk."

If they have the resources, they could try to capture the stalk by force, or even to build their own means off the planet.

Of course, if they have such good resources, they might not want to leave the planet anymore...


"The more I think about the setting, the more I think that cloud madness would really set in. Looking down and seeing nothing but roiling clouds or, in really clear zones, a clear shot down into the white heart of the planet, the glaring core of whirling heat."

Ocean madness comes from living in a small enclosed space. I don't think cloud madness would be an issue if the cloud is sufficiently big with plenty of human contact. People might get nervous if they perceive a constant risk of falling down, but if the cloud is large (so most places are far from an edge) and stable, I know I'd just enjoy the view.

I don't think you'd see the core from anywhere. Gas giants (and Venus) look pretty opaque from outside, and you can't see the seafloor from the surface either.


"I know that fantasy settings have played with the idea, either sky cities above a regular continent or worlds with no land at all."

At least they have magic as an excuse.

Thucydides said...

Didn't we do a thread with cloud cities over Venus? This whole thing is starting to look very familiar somehow.

The ecological environment in a gas giant sounds pretty precarious, and I suspect that the passage of ramscoops through the atmosphere or the repeated plunging of a Moravec rotating tether would be highly disruptive to a wide swath of creatures and energy flows.

The hard scrabble mining towns will be on the moons or asteroids orbiting the primary, where parts are manufactured and people stay when they are not manning or repairing the orbiting machinery. If there is a managerial elite they are probably in free flying colony structures free of the radiation belts of the primary, and effectively beyond the reach of most of the workers (unless they decide to hijack the ramscoops and make a few modifications).

Since the ramscoops will likely be very fine waveriders in shape, they will make excellent "Buck Rogers" spaceships for this trope.

Milo said...

Thucydides:

"I suspect that the passage of ramscoops through the atmosphere or the repeated plunging of a Moravec rotating tether would be highly disruptive to a wide swath of creatures and energy flows."

If the gas giants have creatures, then yes. Of course, mining causing environmental damage is nothing new, and I'm guessing the sheer size of gas giants would help them absorb the damage.

But of course, a realistic gas giant probably wouldn't have creatures at all. Hydrogen gas is a horrible thing to try and float in.


"The hard scrabble mining towns will be on the moons or asteroids orbiting the primary, where parts are manufactured and people stay when they are not manning or repairing the orbiting machinery."

Realistically? Yes. (Mimas and Miranda are my favorite places for this.)

Jollyreaper isn't currently discussing a realistic scenario, though, nor pretending to.


"If there is a managerial elite they are probably in free flying colony structures free of the radiation belts of the primary,"

I would rather be living on the moons and spending my copious funds on heavy shielding (which you pretty much need to go anywhere in space anyway).

But I would consider the "inner hemisphere" of the moons (the one which has a view of the gas giant in the sky) to be the most desirable, if only for the view. At least, that's where most of the tourist attractions will be built.


"and effectively beyond the reach of most of the workers (unless they decide to hijack the ramscoops and make a few modifications)."

The workers are the ones operating the ramscoops, so they wouldn't have to hijack anything, just commit barratry.

jollyreaper said...


"Given the lack of availability of decent fuel stocks in the atmosphere,"

Wait, wait, wasn't access to fusion fuel the main motivator for going to gas giants in the first place?


It's complicated. That was where the atmospheric scoop discussion started but I need a rationale for having miners sitting in a habitable zone within the atmosphere of the gas giant. That's reason #1. I'm guessing they're looking for mcguffinite from the deep core and it just so happens they can't drop the siphons directly from the beanstalk to get it because that would totally remove the need for all these miners. Reason #2 is I need the miners to be effectively trapped on the gas giant. Nobody would stay there if they could leave. If the only way out is completing your contract and going up the stalk, anyone who breaks contract is effectively marooned on the planet. So we declare that they're not going to be able to build shuttles without access to a serious tech base. They can't steal shuttles because nobody else uses them; they're far more expensive than using the beanstalks which is why they were built in the first place.

If disaffected miners could leave whenever they wanted to, we wouldn't have the large population of dissident miners living on the outskirts (i.e. pirates! AAAAR!) Some go native, some go pirate, some try to cloudstead. They're not getting off this cloud. Thus setting the stage for conflict.

"The high mucky-mucks for the extraction companies live upwell in extravagant luxury."

Why would economic segregation be vertical, aside from the symbolism?


That's exactly it. Getting assigned here is a rotten deal and so the execs would want to remain as far upwell as possible. All the nice, posh stuff is placed on the upwell terminal. Downwell is nothing but serious stuff -- heavy manufacturing, maintenance bays, where all the tools and ships used out in the clouds is built. Most of the mass for that would come from automated mines on the rocky satellites.

"The platforms are operated away from the beanstalk since the mining process can produce atmospheric disturbances (setting off psuedo-volcanic eruptions that blast material into orbit.)"

Can you at least try to have your atmospheric disturbances be something, you know, atmospheric? Like a hurricane?


Those would already be part of the cloudscape. I was trying to imagine something humans could do that might trigger a disastrous, horrible, no good, very bad thing. I can't imagine an accident starting a hurricane but maybe something dumb down below could cause an eruption. My heart isn't set on any particular disaster, there just needs to be a reason why expendable platforms are used instead of risking the downwell station of the beanstalks.

jollyreaper said...

If they have the resources, they could try to capture the stalk by force, or even to build their own means off the planet.

That's precisely what they couldn't do. The stalk would be too well-defended. If they raid the miners for supplies, it's going to be at the distant platforms or on the convoys, not at the beanstalk.

Of course, if they have such good resources, they might not want to leave the planet anymore...

That's actually the whole point with the natives. They've figured out a way to live comfortably with maybe ten hours of hard work a week. All the other stuff they do to support themselves could be mistaken for leisure activity. Total parody of the "na'vi have it better" trope. And like the fremen, they have a special substance central to their culture that causes a change in the eyes, not blue on blue but just really, really red and glazed. I figure the original seed population of the natives would have been bored rich kids who wanted to live a neo-primitive lifestyle and so there's a ton of really clever genetic engineering that went into adapting native and imported organisms to their preferred lifestyle. Again, totally playing with our real-life na'vi fetishism. Everyone wants to live like a blue space smurf!


Ocean madness comes from living in a small enclosed space. I don't think cloud madness would be an issue if the cloud is sufficiently big with plenty of human contact. People might get nervous if they perceive a constant risk of falling down, but if the cloud is large (so most places are far from an edge) and stable, I know I'd just enjoy the view.

Right, which is why everything seems purposefully designed to maximize the terror. Catwalks on the bottom of the bases that are just you and infinity below, most of the day is spent dealing with heights and falls that make 1930's high rise worker photos look tame.

Think Cloud City and then think this video, Stairway to Heaven, freeclimbing a massive communications tower.

Site is kinda NSFW, video is not but may make you toss your cookies. People with severe altitude fright do not watch.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81100181/

I don't think you'd see the core from anywhere. Gas giants (and Venus) look pretty opaque from outside, and you can't see the seafloor from the surface either.

I'd chalk it up to a) being a silly setting b) artistic license and c) can lampshade it with a character explaining why this shouldn't be possible.


"I know that fantasy settings have played with the idea, either sky cities above a regular continent or worlds with no land at all."

At least they have magic as an excuse.


We have something even better -- comedic license for utilizing rule of cool. Because this is supposed to be spoofy, I just want you to think of the opening scene from Heavy Metal, the car dropping from the shuttle and going through atmospheric entry. The windshield crusts over with carbon deposits and the spacesuited driver activates the windshield wipers. Painstaking attention to nonsensical details. It makes no freakin' sense but is freakin' sweet. Rule of cool, all permissible because this is supposed to be comedy.

jollyreaper said...


The hard scrabble mining towns will be on the moons or asteroids orbiting the primary, where parts are manufactured and people stay when they are not manning or repairing the orbiting machinery. If there is a managerial elite they are probably in free flying colony structures free of the radiation belts of the primary, and effectively beyond the reach of most of the workers (unless they decide to hijack the ramscoops and make a few modifications).


That stuff would be up there but we're talking about the main focus being on the improbable atmospheric miners floating around in the impossible planet. Remember, the exercise is in being pointlessly absurd to make fun of absurd scifi tropes. And putting in real attention to detail on something that really doesn't make any sense runs with that concept. It's the cleavage window in a heavy breastplate. It's the bridge placed dead center on top of the saucer section for easy targeting. It's manned space fighters. It's anything that doesn't make any sense that keeps getting done because someone thinks it's cool. The saving grace is that some of the people directly involved in it are questioning the insanity while most of the others go along unthinkingly.

Anonymous said...

jollyreaper; your parody sounds good! I'd love to read it!

Ferrell

Thucydides said...

Well if we are going to be playing that game:

Managers and the elite will want to live in free flying colonies because they have the right gravity, while people on the moons are stuck with whatever gravity is available. Shielding a colony isn't too difficult conceptually, and provides protection against most types of weapons.

There is a certain faction which opposes ramscoop mining due to the hypothetical dangers it poses to a putative ecology. Are they really ecologists, or working against the mining company for other reasons?

The miners service the ramscoops and other equipment either in orbit or buried under the surface of the moon. The slender ramscoops have served both as a source of wealth, but also as chariots to avenge the miners when their situation has reached a breaking point. The managers have placed fail safes in the ramscoops, and miners spend lots of time trying to find them and disable them. Did they get them all this time?

And who are the people who fled to the primary in blimps? Who is supporting them from orbit, and what do they get in exchange?

Rick said...

Site is kinda NSFW, video is not but may make you toss your cookies. People with severe altitude fright do not watch.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81100181/


Criminy, I thought "how alarming could a tiny web video be?"

Just to add to your viewing pleasure, the Darwin Awards site had an item about a maintenance guy on a tower who unfastened some bolts and leaned back - turned out the bolts he loosened were the ones to the support bar he leaned back against ....

jollyreaper said...

Seriously, there's only one thing that could make that video worse. A BASE jumper makes it as a gag. Dresses himself up like a tower worker, puts on the helmet cam, films it as a demo climb and at the very top "slips" off and gives the old Wilhelm scream on the way down, popping his chute at the last second. In the second or two after he slips, I'm sure every viewer will be thinking "OMFG, I'm watching a snuff film."

Whoever did that, I'd have to hit him over the head several times with something heavy before I shake his hand for a prank well-played.

jollyreaper said...


jollyreaper; your parody sounds good! I'd love to read it!

Ferrell


Thanks! I'm sticking it in the idea hopper. Saved all my ideas from here. My problem is I get ideas bubbling up unbidden but have trouble getting enough together to make for a solid concept. So for now I'm just writing the ideas down and figuring out how to bring them to fruition later.

Unknown said...

I found this topic ages later so i dunno if my comment will ever be read, but Imho you are way too keen on relativistic weapons.
First no matter the era relativistic weapons are ain't no cheap stuff.
The second reason:I dont think anyone would be keen on waging a war when he has to wait 15 years for the missiles to strike. And as far as I know FTL communications (in the form of quantum entanglement devices are quite plausible) So what if the defending nation has wisely set up a perimeter of FTL comms sensor staitions five lightyear away from their planet.Then they would have at least five years to ward off the missiles somehow.
Im sure no one is keen on waginga war where one has to wait 15 yrs
for their missile to strike, only to find out that it did not strike at all.

Unknown said...

I found this topic ages later so i dunno if my comment will ever be read, but Imho you are way too keen on relativistic weapons.
First no matter the era relativistic weapons are ain't no cheap stuff.
The second reason:I dont think anyone would be keen on waging a war when he has to wait 15 years for the missiles to strike. And as far as I know FTL communications (in the form of quantum entanglement devices are quite plausible) So what if the defending nation has wisely set up a perimeter of FTL comms sensor staitions five lightyear away from their planet.Then they would have at least five years to ward off the missiles somehow.
Im sure no one is keen on waginga war where one has to wait 15 yrs
for their missile to strike, only to find out that it did not strike at all.

Saint Michael said...

"I've yet to see anything to convince me that a planet isn't a giant liability waiting to get whacked by someone with superior firepower." = jollyreaper

A planet can be a fortress with firepower and resources beyond anything a plausible fleet could have. Especially a planet with an atmosphere, which is far thicker if less opaque than any Whipple shield.

Now an undeveloped colony planet with patchy defense coverage is a target. A planet like Earth is not something that could be taken under any reasonable assumptions of fleet strength and supply lines. It can be blasted of course, but not easily or without massive resistance.

Saint Michael said...

"Dropping a nuke, on the other hand, is easy." = jollyreaper

But hardly without consequence for the dropper.

"What kind of lasers would it take to defend against hundreds of r-bombs coming in? Planets just seem so vulnerable when talking about total, genocidal war."

R-bombs would represent a significant resource... assuming they exist at all. Non-trivial. Hundreds ain't happenin'. And it takes vastly advanced drive tech and long interstellar distances to build up to speed, so not something a human would have in any Plausible Mid-Future.

Asteroids are cheaper but slow. You'd need to strongly fortify it since the planet's defenders would pull out all the stops to prevent that impact. If it actually succeeds any survivors and allies will be fanatically gunning for the rock dropper.... forever.

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