tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post8909498705358282848..comments2024-03-19T00:19:09.117-07:00Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Searching For McGuffiniteRickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comBlogger274125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-20932964458498647442021-07-05T19:56:40.148-07:002021-07-05T19:56:40.148-07:00"Tobacco and sugar were not crucial to the ec..."Tobacco and sugar were not crucial to the economies of Europe- the the formed a small but very userful part of the european diet, the former was a luxury.<br /><br />Nevertheless, they drew in massive profits for investers and allowed the North American colonies to survive- it was their prime export." = Geoffrey S H<br /><br />The NA Colonies had plenty of free air. The workforce was cheap to keep alive and required no specialized education. <br /><br />(As an aside, I think the comparison of space settlement to any historical terrestrial settlement or frontier is also a dead trope. Even the word "colonize" is misleading IMO. The circumstances are just too different.)<br /><br />"Space to live and work under your system of religious, social or economic organization without being disturbed by the nosy parkers next door has been a powerful influence throughout history (and perhaps the driving force behind the settlement of the New World and the United States in particular), but if those "masses yearning to be free" can't pony up, or a wealthy sponsor isn't available, then this trope is also a dead issue." = Thucydides<br /><br />*cough*Elon Musk*cough*<br /><br />"That's the catch with the environmental-disaster-to-space trope: You have to imagine something so devastating that people would actually prefer to live in space, yet something so slelective that it doesn't kill the millions of people that are needed to move even a small fraction of our society off-planet." = Tony<br /><br />The only plague that works that way is the two-legged kind.<br /><br />"Currently, there's still hope. As long as the amount of hope is enough to justify the amount of money, the project will continue. It's as simple as that. And considering the possible gains of the project, even a bit of hope is justification to invest quite some money." = Jedidia<br /><br />Sounds a bit like space travel itself.<br /><br />"Having access to an order of magnitude more energy would seem to be useful enough to normal plants in the wild that if it's plausible, you'd wonder why none of them have evolved the capability yet naturally."<br /><br />Evolution is not an engineer. It does not care what's most ideal or efficient. It is a series of glitches that sometimes, kinda sorta hold up well enough to continue working.<br /><br />On to the actual topic! <br /><br />There Is No McGuffinite. Stop trying to invent one.<br /><br />Any extensive settlement of space will not be based on people going there to bring back stuff worth money. We need to address other human motives; if something is a priority to enough people they'll scramble to rationalize it and throw money at it, just ask the pyramid builders.<br /><br />In my own science fiction I never assume a profit motive to get people to space. I just can't bring myself to justify economic flim-flam. So I usually invoke aliens; much more realistic, right?Saint Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-68212295545920273912013-09-16T23:16:30.396-07:002013-09-16T23:16:30.396-07:00You are not supposed to be searching for McGuffini...You are not supposed to be searching for McGuffinite in space, you are supposed to be searching for unobtainium! Seriously. We will be going to space for unobtainium,in the form of rare earth metals that are becoming increasingly necessary for making things like cell phones, and increasingly valuable and hard to find on earth. Venus has lots of uneroded impact craters that are going to have lots of rare and valuable heavy metals at or near ground level, and we will go there when the numbers look right. I suspect that the miners will be leaving gold on the surface to use valuable ship space for lanthanum, neodymium, and other rare earths. Cloud colonies will follow along to support the miners, and eventually the ships built to move things between Earth orbit and Venus orbit will go to Mars, the asteroids, and to Jupiter (to mine Xenon as propellant for ion drives).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-75634981996554732582011-01-21T08:56:35.779-08:002011-01-21T08:56:35.779-08:00http://fulleracton.narod2.ru/index.html
http://...http://fulleracton.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://addisongregory.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://ulysseslinus.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://rafaelali.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://avramseth.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://tobiasabdul.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://victormoses.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://carterlionel.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://jarrodbyron.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://stewartgeorge.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://chasezeus.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://quinnmason.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://jermainegregory.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://thanebranden.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://fitzgeraldfinn.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://rayvernon.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://fritzdieter.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://clarkoscar.narod2.ru/index.html <br />http://caesarbevis.narod2.ru/index.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-64150638435619824352010-12-18T19:21:52.085-08:002010-12-18T19:21:52.085-08:00Planets orbiting dead pulsars do sound pretty cool...Planets orbiting dead pulsars do sound pretty cool!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-83547417761687412742010-12-18T18:28:55.511-08:002010-12-18T18:28:55.511-08:00Hmmm...dead pulsars? That sounds like an interesti...Hmmm...dead pulsars? That sounds like an interesting setting. Exploring any planets orbiting them would be an adventure and a half! Thanks for the info, Jim. <br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-62595029135235561822010-12-18T12:46:03.580-08:002010-12-18T12:46:03.580-08:00Yes the radiation levels near a pulsar would be a ...Yes the radiation levels near a pulsar would be a problem. Planets orbiting a neutron star that is an ex-pulsar would be better & more common. However, ex-pulsars would be harder to find.<br /><br />From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar" rel="nofollow">this</a>:<br /><br />"When a pulsar's spin period slows down sufficiently, the radio pulsar mechanism is believed to turn off (the so-called "death line"). This turn-off seems to take place after about 10-100 million years, which means of all the neutron stars in the 13.6 billion year age of the universe, around 99% no longer pulsate."Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-49757231577956779392010-12-17T20:13:49.735-08:002010-12-17T20:13:49.735-08:00Jim, micro-ETs are microbes that have evolved on o...Jim, micro-ETs are microbes that have evolved on other worlds (at least in my writtings). While pulsar planets sound good for mining exotic metals, you would need some heavy duty rad-shielding! Again, thank-you for the info! Now all I have to do is figure out how to use microscopic black holes for star travel!<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-48028136063042643102010-12-17T19:56:46.116-08:002010-12-17T19:56:46.116-08:00BTW if your ficton include some sort of FTL then y...BTW if your ficton include some sort of FTL then your charactors can visit <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar_planet" rel="nofollow">pulsar planets</a> to mine the high concentrations of heavy elements there.Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-14548795862374801212010-12-17T19:37:43.136-08:002010-12-17T19:37:43.136-08:00"micro-ETs"?
I'd keep platinum grou..."micro-ETs"?<br /><br />I'd keep platinum group metals as an export from the asteroid mines. They're one of the few plausible economic activities.<br /><br />BTW a semi-plausible bit of McGuffinite used in an asteroid mining story was as element in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability" rel="nofollow">island of stability</a> that was below platinum in the periodic table & so found in small but extractable amounts in metallic asteroids.<br /><br />There is also the suggestion by Zubrin that Mars is the only place other than Earth in the solar system in which hydrothermal activity would have concentrated some elements into ore bodies. Unlike earth the best ore bodies on mars have not yet been found & mined so maybe a Mars colony could pay for imports with certain elements.Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-76166333981230507392010-12-16T20:45:44.334-08:002010-12-16T20:45:44.334-08:00Thanks for the links, Jim! Very helpful...I think ...Thanks for the links, Jim! Very helpful...I think that in any of my future stories, I'll have the 'prospectors' searching for micro-ETs, rather than REEs or PGMs; they'll be used on-site, while the hypothetical ETs are the 'Holy Grail' (these prospectors will be extremely annoying to the scientists and the support workers, and one of the many reasons the military is on-world)...But, again, thank-you for the links!<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-1439253070177891932010-12-16T12:41:15.572-08:002010-12-16T12:41:15.572-08:00Re: What substances would be more easily available...Re: What substances would be more easily available off earth so they might be a McGuffinite for space colonies?<br /><br />See the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldschmidt_Classification" rel="nofollow">Goldschmidt Classification</a> & this article on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundances_of_the_chemical_elements" rel="nofollow">Abundances of the chemical elements</a> especially the two graphs of solar system & earth crustal abundances.<br /><br />The lithophile elements including uranium & thorium tend be concentrated in the crust of the earth more than deeper layers, so they would be mined in space only for use there rather than export to earth.<br /><br />OTOH the siderophile elements especially the platinum group elements get concentrated in the metallic iron cores of planets & some asteroids, so if any elements would be plausibly mined in space for use on earth it would be the siderophiles.<br /><br />Some of the noble gasses especially helium3 might be extracted from lunar or asteroidal regolith (having got there from the solar wind) & be valuable enough to export to earth.<br /><br />MAYBE something really valuable can only be made in zero gee &/or extremely high vacuum. The factories for those would be in cis-lunar space, but the raw materials would mostly be mined on the moon or asteroids rather than brought up from earth.Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-54932714888583224172010-12-15T19:24:41.783-08:002010-12-15T19:24:41.783-08:00Ok, staying with the topic of this thread...beside...Ok, staying with the topic of this thread...besides scientific knowledge, what could outposts or colonies send back to Earth to make it worth while to build them in the first place? Rare Earth Elements? Exotic Exo-organic substances? Platinum Group Metals? Radioactives (uranium, thorium, etc)? ET? Really exotic filming locations? Maybe we Should build sea colonies, just to find out which one of these possibilities would pan out? (for ET, substitute undiscovered sea life).<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-82847938382096038012010-12-14T19:50:23.702-08:002010-12-14T19:50:23.702-08:00Umm, Rick, this last post seems to have jumped to ...Umm, Rick, this last post seems to have jumped to another thread rather than the one that it was meant for!<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-21872057704791267062010-12-14T19:45:26.523-08:002010-12-14T19:45:26.523-08:00Jedidia: That seems like something out of the Anim...Jedidia: That seems like something out of the Anime "Ghost in the Shell"...while intertaining, I'm still not sure that I'd want the internet plugged directly into my brain! :0<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-74598862427684793082010-12-12T20:17:47.886-08:002010-12-12T20:17:47.886-08:00Even if a colony at sea or in space is the exclusi...Even if a colony at sea or in space is the exclusive property of nation "x" or the corporation, it is still isolated from the parent and vulnerable to attack or exploitation from everything from criminal elements to enemy nations. Unless the plan calls for a carrier battle group or equivalent parked nearby, the owners might have to take losses into account when planning their venture.<br /><br />The 13 colonies may not have been designed around defensibility, but every male member was expected to participate in the defense of the realm (sometimes as a legal obligation), and as a practical matter learned to do so if only to protect his own homestead. Given the opposition wasn't there in overwhelming strength (Indian tribes were divided against each other, and the French [the only nearby European competition] were spread very thinly over a much wider area than the English colonies.) this sufficed.<br /><br />The situation is very different today, even small nations like Singapore can design and manufacture advanced weaponry and pirates with access to cheap infantry weapons and reliable communications are already wreaking havoc along the coast of Africa. Your local militia had better be trained and equipped to deal with this.Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-4569716514166851582010-12-12T08:05:35.780-08:002010-12-12T08:05:35.780-08:00Remember: The 13 colonies were not founded princip...Remember: The 13 colonies were not founded principally on their defensibility. it was an important factor in later years, but a minor one in the beginning.Geoffrey S Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-86691550736393231872010-12-11T21:16:01.601-08:002010-12-11T21:16:01.601-08:00Thucydides said:"A sea colony, even a very su...Thucydides said:"A sea colony, even a very successful economic foundry powered by OTEC, would attract the wrong kind of attention. It is in range of overwhelming force from established powers, which can be delivered via air and sea, and would have only a very limited ability to defend itself from anything more than an infestation of pirates (and might not even do well there)."<br />But that assumes that the sea colony is totally independent and is not a possesion of a nation-state...and the same could be said about a space colony. The rest of your post I somewhat agree with; however, after a certain amount of time, those colonies would have developed a permanent population (people who decide not to leave, childeren born in the colony that can't or won't leave, people that cannot leave for health/economic reasons, etc). <br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-4047518441677235532010-12-11T17:27:23.512-08:002010-12-11T17:27:23.512-08:00A sea colony, even a very successful economic foun...A sea colony, even a very successful economic foundry powered by OTEC, would attract the wrong kind of attention. It is in range of overwhelming force from established powers, which can be delivered via air and sea, and would have only a very limited ability to defend itself from anything more than an infestation of pirates (and might not even do well there).<br /><br />Actually, the same arguments would apply to any space colony, since the technology which could launch colonists and their machinery would easily launch nuclear warheads or KKV's to any point in the Solar System the colonists can reach. Only after a very prolonged period of building and development would the colonies have the ability to fight back (they will be able to post arbitrarily large mirrors and antenna in orbit to detect incoming vehicles and objects).<br /><br />The only way to ensure success for the colony as a whole is to ensure the success of the colony also equals success for the members. Many people who worked for the Hudson's Bay company essentially spent years in the high Arctic running or working in "factories" (trading posts) to accumulate enough wealth to retire comfortably at home. A large portion of the hypothetical colony workers will be slaving away at the McGuffinite mines in order to return to Earth as rich men and women, and actually have little long term attachment to the colony as a whole.<br /><br />Incidentally, the idea that libertarians would not be pulling their weight runs counter to the very core of Libertarian philosophy; voluntary cooperation between consenting people. Libertarians (assuming you can find enough to build the colony) would be very willing to work together to achieve common goals like ensuring the ecology keeps running, they will be much less helpful when they are or feel they are being coerced to do something. Reality falls somewhere in the middle, of course.Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-87773509998184084092010-12-11T17:11:52.566-08:002010-12-11T17:11:52.566-08:00... with some undersea colonies eventually doing t...... with some undersea colonies eventually doing the same thing?Geoffrey S Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-36626286656811082292010-12-10T18:18:21.417-08:002010-12-10T18:18:21.417-08:00Re: the lack of sea going colonies.
Another reaso...Re: the lack of sea going colonies.<br /><br />Another reason is the same that has been brought up repeatedly about space colonies, the lack of an economic motivation. A sea colony or space colony needs either some way to provide all the necessities of life locally or an export that can pay for needed imports. Fishing might seem to be a possiblility, but most of the worlds good fishing is near land eg: the Grand Banks have Newfoundland to provide a place for fishermen to live.<br /><br />If some variant of OTEC could be made as cheap per MW as hydroelectric (I doubt it) then we could have floating industrial centers in the equatorial Pacific refining aluminum, making ammonia fertilizer, & supporting fishing fleets because the water brought up is rich in nutrients.Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-63546853585661471752010-12-10T14:16:52.615-08:002010-12-10T14:16:52.615-08:00Re: Rick
As Raymond pointed out, the key factor i...Re: Rick<br /><br />As Raymond pointed out, the key factor is remoteness and rare opportunities for physical communication. Think more along the lines of a VOC trading establishment in the East Indies anytime before the middle of the 19th Century. Very few people went out for their whole lives, and those that did either had no prospects in the Netherlands or simply considered the VOC interests more importnat than his personal ones. That latter kind of person is the kind that would likely lead a space settlement.<br /><br />Also, VOC stations were fairly autocratically run. Merchants, factors, clerks, soldiers, etc. were there to do a job for the company's investors at home, not find their greatest personal expressions. I don't see scientists and engineers out in space as being any different in purpose or need for government. They may be educated people, but, outside of their personal academic or professional passions, they're highly selfish and undisciplined, for the most part.Tonyhttp://blogs.echofiveecho.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-34056965512873128022010-12-10T13:39:05.600-08:002010-12-10T13:39:05.600-08:00Rick:
"Regarding one popular SF theme, colon...Rick:<br /><br /><i>"Regarding one popular SF theme, colonies or habs of whatever group, libertarians, religious, etc., an interesting counterpoint is that there's no significant present day counterpart at sea, even though ships at sea are profoundly unsupervised."</i>"<br /><br />The sea is still within range of special forces teams and/or cruise missiles. Puts a bit of a damper on bids for independence.<br /><br />I am waiting for a more permanent undersea residence, though - it's a slightly less-common trope than space colonization, but potentially easier to pull off, and might have advantages for tapping geothermal power.Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18103471451043461302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-6060421250665876822010-12-10T13:22:46.096-08:002010-12-10T13:22:46.096-08:00Those things don't seem to be a problem in Ant...Those things don't seem to be a problem in Antarctica, or observatories on remote mountaintops, etc. Why would it be essentially different in space?<br /><br />Here, as so often, there is a huge spillover from Romance. Would anyone even be speculating about space colonization if we had not all grown up on Heinlein et al?<br /><br />Regarding one popular SF theme, colonies or habs of whatever group, libertarians, religious, etc., an interesting counterpoint is that there's no significant present day counterpart at sea, even though ships at sea are profoundly unsupervised.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-9698726270815695702010-12-10T12:43:45.152-08:002010-12-10T12:43:45.152-08:00The problem is that nobody with any kind of real p...The problem is that nobody with any kind of real prospects on Earth is going to want to live out his life away from Earth. But we can't populate our space settlements with highly idealistic losers. So the few competent idealists are going to wind up being the community organizers for the vast majority of the population that is temporary. They will probably be highly autocratic and invested with equally heavy authority to knock heads when necessary. They may even have to be backed up by a thug or two.Tonyhttp://blogs.echofiveecho.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-9886044639620459752010-12-10T12:17:04.981-08:002010-12-10T12:17:04.981-08:00Given the hazards of idiots in space, *I* picture ...Given the hazards of idiots in space, *I* picture space culture to be somewhat like that of SOF or submarine crews:<br /><br />A uniformly high level of competence, and anyone who does not pull their own weight *and* help others in the group (sorry, libertarians) gets voted off the island. This means a pretty strict hierarchy, but a culture that listens to the subject matter expert, no matter the SME's official rank.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08876828579688122237noreply@blogger.com