Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: A Supersized 'Earth'

Thucydides: "Why do people build anywhere...

2012-01-03T10:00:47.395-08:00
Thucydides:

"Why do people build anywhere? There are lots of places even in Canada and the United States which don't seem likely as places to settle and live,

In the far future, people might choose to settle on Mars as being the easiest place, but other people will be attracted to other places seeking opportunities or adventure. Once we can get to Mars, going anywhere else will be relatively easy."

Mineral extraction communities are hardly what I'd call "settling". They all become ghost towns as soon as the hole dries up.

But that's not what I was talking about. The kinds of rules of thumb I was referring to have to do with so much insulation for so much internal to external heat differential, the construction of pressure-tight structures, the provision of power/water/light, etc. Those are pretty universal and work almost anywhere you go.

Why do people build anywhere? There are lots of pl...

2012-01-02T17:15:30.988-08:00
Why do people build anywhere? There are lots of places even in Canada and the United States which don't seem likely as places to settle and live,

In the far future, people might choose to settle on Mars as being the easiest place, but other people will be attracted to other places seeking opportunities or adventure. Once we can get to Mars, going anywhere else will be relatively easy.

Thucydides: "Rules of thumb developed for...

2012-01-02T11:21:57.201-08:00
Thucydides:

"Rules of thumb developed for Mars will not be very applicable on Titan, and your experience in building there will not help you throw up structures on the moons of Uranus."

Why would anybody build large communities in those places? In the Solar System I think Earth and Mars are pretty much it for large scale settlement.

Rules of thumb developed for Mars will not be very...

2012-01-01T22:03:02.075-08:00
Rules of thumb developed for Mars will not be very applicable on Titan, and your experience in building there will not help you throw up structures on the moons of Uranus.

Thucydides: "The economic impact would be...

2012-01-01T20:36:39.241-08:00
Thucydides:

"The economic impact would be that you would either have to invest more for the power and light, or build fewer colonies for the same amount of money. The main point that I am trying to make is the colonies themselves are going to be well understood modular structures with well known building templates.

Structures built on the surfaces of planets and moons will not have the same advantages, since everything from gravity to temperature control to dealing with weather will be unique to that environment, and will have to be learned anew with each new planet or moon that you reach."

Sorry, but here on the Earth we have rules of thumb -- and quite often well developed procedures -- for dealing with widely varying environmental conditions, including pressure, temperature, insolation, and weather. I see no reason to believe it would be different on any other planet.

The economic impact would be that you would either...

2012-01-01T15:41:33.152-08:00
The economic impact would be that you would either have to invest more for the power and light, or build fewer colonies for the same amount of money. The main point that I am trying to make is the colonies themselves are going to be well understood modular structures with well known building templates.

Structures built on the surfaces of planets and moons will not have the same advantages, since everything from gravity to temperature control to dealing with weather will be unique to that environment, and will have to be learned anew with each new planet or moon that you reach.

Thucydides: "The core of the "Island...

2012-01-01T11:52:32.099-08:00
Thucydides:

"The core of the "Island" colony structure can remain the same regardless of where you are in the solar system, but the mirror and radiators will be of the appropriate size, the ones in the Jovian orbit will be much larger than the ones in Earth orbit. If I wasn't clear about that earlier,then I apologize."

What I don't think you're too clear on is how different costs of energy affect your habitat economics (and the economics of any associated businesses). The sunlight isn't free. You have to invest in collection, rectification, and distribution systems. The bigger they have to be for a given amount of power at the outlet, the more expensive your power is. More expensive power doesn't work "as well" as less expensive power, not at the overall system level.

Slip of the finger. Interesting article here:
2011-12-31T06:23:10.028-08:00
Slip of the finger.

Interesting article here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/are-we-alone-in-the-universe/2011/12/29/gIQA2wSOPP_story.html?wprss=rss_opinions

2011-12-31T06:21:34.936-08:00
This comment has been removed by the author.

So, where would you like to spend shore leave? Det...

2011-12-30T18:18:53.205-08:00
So, where would you like to spend shore leave? Detroit or Las Vagas?

Ferrell

various authors have written dystopias with see...

2011-12-29T18:34:33.686-08:00
various authors have written dystopias with seedy L5 colonies full of bars, strip joints and so on

Colonies without any of those things strike me as more dystopian.

Multiple tubs of different strains of algae is an ...

2011-12-29T13:31:26.509-08:00
Multiple tubs of different strains of algae is an ecosystem (although still a fairly limited one). The example from Cities in Flight shows that there should be many different and independent ecological "loops" to insulate the system from external events and crashes.

The core of the "Island" colony structure can remain the same regardless of where you are in the solar system, but the mirror and radiators will be of the appropriate size, the ones in the Jovian orbit will be much larger than the ones in Earth orbit. If I wasn't clear about that earlier,then I apologize.

Lots of insults of the majority of the human race ...

2011-12-28T16:16:56.636-08:00
Lots of insults of the majority of the human race that's urban, I see.

"I'd take my chances living in a grounded spacecraft settled on the soil of a desolate Martian desert rather than living a dull, conformist, canned life in a heavily regulated space habitat."

Most likely the Martians would be leading dull conformist canned lives in heavily regulated Martian habitats, since Mars outside is about as deadly as space outside. Occasionally they could leave the 1/3 g can to waddle in the 1/3 g outside in their spacesuits and admire the alien view, instead of leaving their 1 g can to float in zero gee in their spacesuits and admire the space view.

Me, I'd rather live in space Chinatown than space Billings. And some modern Americans may think life without an SUV and wilderness is unthinkable, but how often did a Chinatown or Jewish urban immigrant see the Big Outdoors?

Here's a prediction: if space is ever colonized, it will be by people who aren't too picky about the conditions.

Tony: "One has to ask one critical questi...

2011-12-28T13:52:08.673-08:00
Tony:

"One has to ask one critical question: what project or industry in space is so large and profitable that it justifies megastructures -- and all of the energy and resources that would go into them -- as mere residential districts. I can see rotating cans roughly the size of supertankers, with many internal decks. But O'Neill Island X colonies? I just can't see a motivation."

Yeah- these residential megastructures sound like something out of Star Wars. Speaking of Star Wars, the Executor-class Star Dreadnought is 19km long and can accelerate a 1230g. This is obviously far, far beyond "plausible midfuture" (and I am ignoring various scientific inconsistencies between the world of Star Wars and our own).

Not to mention that building huge spaceships is not just a matter of finding enough raw materials. Size matters because of gravity and acceleration. If you are building an immobile space habitat in microgravity, size doesn't matter. If you are building a spaceship, size matters a lot. As a structure grows larger, mass increases faster than load-bearing area. If you increase the scale of a ship by 10, the mass will become 1000 times greater but it will get only 100 times stronger.

When it accelerates, the stress can tear a huge structure like the Executor apart unless it is made of extraordinarily strong materials. This is why Galileo knew that there is a "proper size" for everything. You can't scale something up without radically altering the design, and if something gets too large, it becomes infeasible regardless of design. This is the reason that Dyson spheres and ringworlds need super-materials. Kind of puts space opera settings in perspective.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html

On the oil tanker sized spinning habitats- don't forget that if the radius of a spinning habitat is too small, the inhabitants will experience motion sickness. Some people might adapt, but on the whole most people won't be comfortable. Something to keep in mind.

Thucydides: "If we are looking at a place...

2011-12-28T13:36:51.242-08:00
Thucydides:

"If we are looking at a place for civilization..., then you need lots of room!"

Please stop with the exclamation points. Exhortative rhetoric is not convincing.

And you won't need much room at all if you kill everybody off by oversubscribing your resources to making luxury living space at the expense of getting anything useful done. I really don't think you comprehend just how resource and energy intensive these megastrtuctures would be.

Also, you upstream assertion that, "What works on an Island colony in L5 works in the Jovian trailing Trojans as well," is demonstrably not factual. If you're relying on solar energy, you need to devote a larger fraction of your resources to collection, rectification, and distribution than you do if you're 5 times closer to the sun with 25 times the insolation.

Thucydides: "Ecologies need to be as rich...

2011-12-28T13:21:58.342-08:00
Thucydides:

"Ecologies need to be as rich and diversified as possible to ensure there are no catastrophic "crash" events. A tub of algae may be very efficient at converting waste and producing O2, until a mutant strain of e coli shows up and starts eating it."

Include many tubs of algae with different strains of algae. You still don't need coral reefs, jungles, or man-eating tigers in your spaceship. We are running a spacecraft, not a communal back-to-nature pig farm.

Come to think of it, in James Blish's Cities in Flight, New York City's food and oxygen are produced by tanks of algae. While the city is flying near a supernova, enhanced radiation levels mutate the algae, causing the city's food supplies to become endangered.

Maybe someday we will have Silent Running style spaceships with an entire deck devoted to a small rainforest, but it doesn't seem very necessary for most spacecraft or space stations.

The exact details of the life support system will depend on the purpose of the spaceship. A rocket ship that goes on trips around our solar system only needs to hold out for a few months between resupplies. A self-sustaining space city or planetary colony designed for long term habitation by a large number of people needs robust life support, plenty of space, and maybe a rainforest environment. A science-fictional exploration starship with a hyperdrive needs a robust and compact life support system that can hold out for years if necessary.

O'Neill's starting point (I think) was a s...

2011-12-28T13:07:35.955-08:00
O'Neill's starting point (I think) was a seminar he held in the early to mid 1970's asking "is a planet the best place for a civilization?"

If we are thinking of a work camp like the ones springing up by the Alberta Oil Sands or North Dakota's Bakken fields, then a supetanker sized "can" will do nicely. If we are looking at a place for civilization (or even Civilization), then you need lots of room!

The economics and practical arguments for doing so (or not) have been pretty much wrestled to the ground here.

Re: Thucydides One has to ask one critical questi...

2011-12-28T10:18:36.626-08:00
Re: Thucydides

One has to ask one critical question: what project or industry in space is so large and profitable that it justifies megastructures -- and all of the energy and resources that would go into them -- as mere residential districts. I can see rotating cans roughly the size of supertankers, with many internal decks. But O'Neill Island X colonies? I just can't see a motivation.

I give O'Neill credit for grandiose thinking, but not for practicality.

=Milo= Thucydides: "Ecologies need to ...

2011-12-27T22:00:44.865-08:00
=Milo=

Thucydides:

"Ecologies need to be as rich and diversified as possible to ensure there are no catastrophic "crash" events."

This depends on how long they need to be autonomous. If your ecology needs to be able to last for decades in isolation, then yes. If you just need to hold out for a few months between restocks, not so much.

Since we have moved from giant planets to giant st...

2011-12-27T21:49:43.326-08:00
Since we have moved from giant planets to giant structures in space, a few observations are in order here:

1. Giant structures in space are required for many reasons, including the need for radiation shielding and to provide enough inertia to overcome the movement of people and equipment within the structure. Unbalanced structures in space=bad things happening.

2. Biosphere 2 was on to something (but obviously there needs to be far more experimentation). Ecologies need to be as rich and diversified as possible to ensure there are no catastrophic "crash" events. A tub of algae may be very efficient at converting waste and producing O2, until a mutant strain of e coli shows up and starts eating it. The Irish discovered the dangers of monoculture in the 180's, a lesson we should take to heart today.

3. Bespoke structures for different planetary environments will be nightmarish rather than romantic. No body of experience would be able to be carried totally over from one environment to the other; you will always be on the wrong end of a dangerous and expensive learning curve. Island habitats are essentially giant thermos bottles with solar mirrors and heat radiators matched to the location in space attached. What works on an Island colony in L5 works in the Jovian trailing Trojans as well.

4. O'Neill viewed the Island colonies as essentially the homes for the workers who were busy building lunar mines and solar powersats. These are not "pioneering" people as we might think of them but rather industrial workers who want a nice home with beers and barbeques to relax in. O'Neill didn't talk about the darker side of industrial neighbourhoods (probably because he never lived in one), but various authors have written dystopias with seedy L5 colonies full of bars, strip joints and so on (Allen Steele anyone?).

By the time humans (or post humans) reach the stars to study giant planets up close, there will be centuries or millenia of experience in living and working on space to draw from.

I'd have posted the complete article from New ...

2011-12-27T15:32:21.812-08:00
I'd have posted the complete article from New Scientist, but I don't have a subscription sadly. The techno-prophets at Kurzweil had to do.

The fact that Kurzweil picked up on this is an ...

2011-12-27T14:08:32.286-08:00
The fact that Kurzweil picked up on this is an informative datum in and of itself. It means that it's considered news by people who have a very shaky relationship with reality.

Pardon me sir or madam but has anybody ever witnessed to you about the Singularity? You can develop a close and personal relationship with your very own techno-rapture. Salvation for just pennies a day! Immortality guaranteed or double your money back!

Sean: "Speaking of colonization: http://w...

2011-12-27T12:11:03.568-08:00
Sean:

"Speaking of colonization: http://www.kurzweilai.net/ill-put-millions-of-people-on-mars-says-elon-musk

Elon Musk once had my respect as an innovator, now I think he's just as deluded as Robert Zubrin."

jollyreaper:

"Is he just crazy or just crazy enough to be onto something? I'd say crazy but I've been wrong before."

Wey-ull...the actual statement was that he'd put ten thousand on Mars, and that ultimately millions might move there. I have a couple of things to say:

1. The fact that Kurzweil picked up on this is an informative datum in and of itself. It means that it's considered news by people who have a very shaky relationship with reality.

2. It's the kind of thing that visionary industrialists always say, but that few of them ever deliver on. So, move on, there's nothing to see here...

Is he just crazy or just crazy enough to be onto s...

2011-12-27T11:50:11.848-08:00
Is he just crazy or just crazy enough to be onto something? I'd say crazy but I've been wrong before.

Speaking of colonization: http://www.kurzweilai.ne...

2011-12-27T11:34:27.566-08:00
Speaking of colonization: http://www.kurzweilai.net/ill-put-millions-of-people-on-mars-says-elon-musk

Elon Musk once had my respect as an innovator, now I think he's just as deluded as Robert Zubrin.

Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: A Supersized 'Earth'

Thucydides: "Why do people build anywhere...

Why do people build anywhere? There are lots of pl...

Thucydides: "Rules of thumb developed for...

Rules of thumb developed for Mars will not be very...

Thucydides: "The economic impact would be...

The economic impact would be that you would either...

Thucydides: "The core of the "Island...

Slip of the finger. Interesting article here:
2011-12-31T06:23:10.028-08:00
Slip of the finger.

Interesting article here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/are-we-alone-in-the-universe/2011/12/29/gIQA2wSOPP_story.html?wprss=rss_opinions

So, where would you like to spend shore leave? Det...

various authors have written dystopias with see...

Multiple tubs of different strains of algae is an ...

Lots of insults of the majority of the human race ...

Tony: "One has to ask one critical questi...

Thucydides: "If we are looking at a place...

Thucydides: "Ecologies need to be as rich...

O'Neill's starting point (I think) was a s...

Re: Thucydides One has to ask one critical questi...

=Milo= Thucydides: "Ecologies need to ...

Since we have moved from giant planets to giant st...

I'd have posted the complete article from New ...

The fact that Kurzweil picked up on this is an ...

Sean: "Speaking of colonization: http://w...

Is he just crazy or just crazy enough to be onto s...

Speaking of colonization: http://www.kurzweilai.ne...

Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: A Supersized 'Earth'

Thucydides: "Why do people build anywhere...

Why do people build anywhere? There are lots of pl...

Thucydides: "Rules of thumb developed for...

Rules of thumb developed for Mars will not be very...

Thucydides: "The economic impact would be...

The economic impact would be that you would either...

Thucydides: "The core of the "Island...

Slip of the finger. Interesting article here: 2011-12-31T06:23:10.028-08:00 Slip of the finger.Interesting article here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/are-we-alone-in-the-universe/2011/12/29/gIQA2wSOPP_story.html?wprss=rss_opinions

So, where would you like to spend shore leave? Det...

various authors have written dystopias with see...

Multiple tubs of different strains of algae is an ...

Lots of insults of the majority of the human race ...

Tony: "One has to ask one critical questi...

Thucydides: "If we are looking at a place...

Thucydides: "Ecologies need to be as rich...

O'Neill's starting point (I think) was a s...

Re: Thucydides One has to ask one critical questi...

=Milo= Thucydides: "Ecologies need to ...

Since we have moved from giant planets to giant st...

I'd have posted the complete article from New ...

The fact that Kurzweil picked up on this is an ...

Sean: "Speaking of colonization: http://w...

Is he just crazy or just crazy enough to be onto s...

Speaking of colonization: http://www.kurzweilai.ne...

Slip of the finger. Interesting article here:
2011-12-31T06:23:10.028-08:00
Slip of the finger.

Interesting article here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/are-we-alone-in-the-universe/2011/12/29/gIQA2wSOPP_story.html?wprss=rss_opinions