tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post5869488455853820294..comments2024-03-28T00:36:19.403-07:00Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Communication, Aliens, and People Who Speak in Klingon of Na'viRickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-39515475472505025772015-10-17T14:50:44.845-07:002015-10-17T14:50:44.845-07:00I will just note that the title of the H. Beam Pip...I will just note that the title of the H. Beam Piper story Lentulus mentioned is _Omnilingual_.Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-68065622474997607412012-06-04T07:02:18.559-07:002012-06-04T07:02:18.559-07:00Meanwhile, one particular Duchess pointing to Camb...Meanwhile, one particular Duchess pointing to Cambridge notched up another landmark operating in your sweetheart's royal progress when she attended your darling straight away Buckingham Palace property party yesterday. Often the Duchess - without usually the Duke, who could be via work on RAF Valley - joined your Queen, this Prince related with Wales, its Duchess using Cornwall and additionally 8000 guests as for tea and as a result cakes. [url=http://www.charmscanadajewelry.com]pandora rings[/url]<br /> These companies each and every spoke about what the product was formerly the same as to provide a grandmother who was simultaneously some sort of Queen. "I still think she is now quite frankly my grandmother especially," William said. "I'm probably a fabulous bit on the cheeky grandson, including my brother as to be honest. We together take some of the mickey a nice bit too much." [url=http://www.charmscanadajewelry.com]pandora charms[/url]<br /> <br />Three for this 33-year-old's former friends told the specific Oslo Arrondissement Court on Tuesday that through 5 years preceding to a person's right-wing fanatic massacred 77 ladies with regard to July, he or she moved yet again in order to really live accompanied by his mother and therefore ended all social contacts. http://www.charmsaustraliaofficial.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-83631454433735383622012-04-15T19:52:31.891-07:002012-04-15T19:52:31.891-07:00Welcome to a another new (I think!) commenter!
Es...Welcome to a another new (I think!) commenter!<br /><br />Establishing communications across a 'sensory gap' would certainly be ... challenging. But not necessarily impossible. At some level we don't need to fully understand someone's experience to communicate with them about it. <br /><br />Admittedly this goes to the underlying question of what exactly 'human' intelligence is. It seems to be really elusive, one reason that I consider 'strong' AI a non-extrapolable tech. We know how Deep Blue plays winning chess, but I don't think we have a clue as to how human grandmasters do so.<br /><br />If we encounter aliens who work like Deep Blue, not like us, we may not really have much to say to them, though we could learn a lot of cool stuff by analyzing how they do things.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-30960528146437997532012-04-14T18:38:34.387-07:002012-04-14T18:38:34.387-07:00Returning to the idea of a race without mathematic...Returning to the idea of a race without mathematics, for whom technology evolved instead of being engineered, I wish to point out that although what jean remy said is indeed correct, like any language, math is not the only one. It is definitely the means to an end, but not the only means. The first being who took the relative form of a human was evidently not thinking "Hey, I think four limbs arranged on an upright torso with a circular object on top!" Therefor, one must conclude that it is possible for a machine to evolve using a sentient being as an alternative means to math.<br /><br />I would also like to bring up the huge communications barrier of sensory information. Have you ever tried explaining green to a colorblind person? You can't. It just can't happen. Aliens would be much the same. They may interpret colors different than us, and therefor, they may appear pink and plaid to us, and an indescribable different color to them. They may also register a different part of the spectrum than us, meaning that we could not always see the same things. These are the types of barriers that would make it impossible to communicate scientifically, because they disallow qualitative description.übertronichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01069099854696019879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-9348811145190529092011-03-14T07:55:09.569-07:002011-03-14T07:55:09.569-07:00There was a delightful old H. Beam Piper story in ...There was a delightful old H. Beam Piper story in which the equivalent of the Rosetta Stone was a periodic table. How much of a grip on language in general you could get from one I do not know; there is no way the actual content could be culture-dependent, although I suppose the presentation could keep scholars busy for a while.Lentulushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07748125314815303831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-40863345023346525242010-12-29T12:33:26.163-08:002010-12-29T12:33:26.163-08:00Jumping in late and having not read the whole thin...Jumping in late and having not read the whole thing...<br /><br />WRT to math as a language: No, it isn't, because it is too ambiguous in and of itself. The expression:<br /><br />p = i * e<br /><br />is meaningless without knowing the domains of two of the variables. Even then it is vague without plugging in specific values. And even <i>then</i> it is unworkably abstract without knowing a context:<br />"p" represents power in watts; "i" represents current in amps; "e" represents electromotive force in volts.<br /><br />Even when given concrete numerical values and no assumptions about context, math relies on non-numerical conventions. The simple expression:<br /><br />1 + 1 = 2<br /><br />relies on an agreed definition of:<br /><br />integral (or "whole") numbers<br />numeral symbology<br />operator symbology<br />radix (or "base")<br /><br />It would take a considerable amount of precise communication <i>before</i> math more complex than counting on fingers (tentacles, claws, whatever) could be understood.<br /><br />Having said all of that, once mathematical conventions were understood, quite a large amount of technical knowledge could be interchanged.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-25289314644278435102010-11-25T10:46:21.938-08:002010-11-25T10:46:21.938-08:00My partner and I really enjoyed reading this blog ...My partner and I really enjoyed reading this blog post, I was just itching to know do you trade featured posts? I am always trying to find someone to make trades with and merely thought I would ask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-11450001528806264362010-08-20T14:27:17.390-07:002010-08-20T14:27:17.390-07:00Thanks for the link to 'Freefall' - that w...Thanks for the link to 'Freefall' - that was nicely done, the smell of donuts on his gloves.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-56198737779307260912010-08-20T07:06:16.151-07:002010-08-20T07:06:16.151-07:00i'm new... expectancy to post around more ofte...i'm new... expectancy to post around more oftentimes!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-62686096424107366502010-08-18T21:48:17.688-07:002010-08-18T21:48:17.688-07:00The webcomic 'Freefall' (http://freefall.p...The webcomic 'Freefall' (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1600/fc01578.htm) sometimes explores implications of a more developed olfactory sense in a sentient being. In this case, an uplifted wolf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-58618958304277361672010-05-12T17:17:43.381-07:002010-05-12T17:17:43.381-07:00Perhaps the winner of an interstellar war wouldn&#...Perhaps the winner of an interstellar war wouldn't be the fleet who fires first, but rather which fleet understands their rival's language first!VonMalcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396555975528915948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-17199397132286018622010-04-10T17:52:03.470-07:002010-04-10T17:52:03.470-07:00One big factor in olfactory communication, I would...One big factor in olfactory communication, I would think, is that smells linger - not so much in the air as on surfaces, which is why dogs mark fire hydrants. It would make a room rather like a bulletin board or comment thread, with older comments gradually fading into unintelligibility.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-47856813542505387282010-04-09T13:28:28.424-07:002010-04-09T13:28:28.424-07:00@Jean Remy:
I like the way you think :)@Jean Remy:<br /><br />I like the way you think :)tkiniashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03866834707307967632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-23689332970480370922010-04-08T14:32:21.173-07:002010-04-08T14:32:21.173-07:00They were blind. And yes most of their brain was d...They were blind. And yes most of their brain was devoted to olfactory sense like most of our brain is designed around visual clues.<br /><br />At long range yes communications depend on the wind. Their culture was still basically tribal with the news from distant tribes carried over the "trade winds" if you will. In fact trade winds is adequate because such chemical memory/knowledge was the most precious thing they had.<br /><br />As for identification, they emitted a sort of underlying identification "code" on a subchannel, if you will. There was basically two kinds of "wavelengths", a subconscious pheromonal one that you didn't technically *smell* but carried emotional cues and identification, and a "smell" channel which corresponds to our auditory messages.<br /><br />As to directionality I never developed that, but how about large lung capacity and the ability for powerful exhalation. Yes there would be some issues "scenting out" in a crowded room, in the same way it's hard to talk in a crowded room. The pheromonal markers and intensity, (like voice pattern and intensity for voice) help clear things out.<br /><br />I agree it's not the most practical system but I wanted something distinctly alien, which caused the human explorers to fail to recognize them as intelligent. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities.Jean-Remyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07186948442919090289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-48387217214909157402010-04-07T17:55:48.087-07:002010-04-07T17:55:48.087-07:00A moment's contemplation makes me realize that...A moment's contemplation makes me realize that I should have said two-by-three: there's also the olfactory sense. I don't expect that passive olfactory communication (you change how you react to and re-emit the scent-particles I emit?) could <em>ever</em> be optimal, but (pace the ants) I don't really see why anyone would prefer scent to sound as a way of communicating. But some organisms do...tkiniashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03866834707307967632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-33274570138240310222010-04-07T17:47:08.478-07:002010-04-07T17:47:08.478-07:00kedamono@mac.com writes:
Looking at the issue, th...kedamono@mac.com writes:<br /><br /><em>Looking at the issue, there are only a few truly viable means of communicating: Sound, Color changing, Light.</em><br /><br />Trying to think generically, I would say that this is really a two-by-two grid of techniques: two media and two methods. That is, there are two media (EM and acoustic) and two techniques (active and passive). (I'm making the active/passive distinction from the point of view of the "speaker"; this is arbitrary, I suppose.) We are most familiar with active sound (that is, speech/hearing: you make a sound and I hear it). You also mention "light", which I would call active EM (you glow or otherwise radiate and I see it) and "color changing", which I would call passive EM (you change how you reflect EM radiation and I perceive how your EM signature changes). I am not aware of an organism's using passive acoustic communication, but it's not inconceivable that, if dolphin- or bat-style echolocation is the dominant means of "sight" in an ecosystem, a means of communication might evolve that would involve changing one's echo signature. This could range from something very much like sign language (which, if the perceptual medium were sight, I would lump with "color changing" as passive EM) to something rather like color changing but affecting acoustic reflectivity rather than color (e.g., selective changing of skin texture rather than color).<br /><br />I expect it would take a very special kind of environment for passive acoustic to be preferable to both active acoustic and passive visual/EM, but, given where I grew up, I would never have thought trading sight for smell was a good idea either... but plenty of organisms do fine with that tradeoff.tkiniashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03866834707307967632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-31583724617865194372010-04-07T13:48:41.190-07:002010-04-07T13:48:41.190-07:00There is a lot of confusion between math as a tech...There is a lot of confusion between math as a technology and mathematics as a codified science...<br /><br /><b>arithmetic as technology</b> is the ability to measure, count, and perform simple arithmetic. It is fundamental to our concepts of technology. <br /><br /><b>Mathematics as science</b> the detailed study of arithmetic and the advanced forms used to describe the natural world, plus the subordinate technologies of Al-Gebra's Symbols, and the forms of Calculus, the logic of the greeks, the calculation logic of computing, plus studies of comparative numerologies.<br /><br />Mathematics is not essential for most technology, and experimental non-mathematical iteration with arithmetic for measure is the fundamental axiom of preindustrial sciences.<br /><br />But, without measure, progress is pretty much impossible. Our ability to replicate items is inherently innate, but to do so accurately and without direct observation requires measurement, comparison, and counting. The skills of arithmetic taught by even silly songs in the middle ages... <br /><br />Very few adults are innumerate; that is, incapable of basic counting and measuring; no human culture I've read of is inherently innumerate.<br /><br />Oh, and chimps make tools, and have some inherent non-verbal grasp of numeracy... but they lack arithmetical skills. But even there, our first successful communicative actions were involving numeracy... reward selecting which has more, then which has a specific number.<br /><br />And the dolphin language issues are showing that, at least amongst mammals, the fundamental world view of objects and the ability to abstract to a symbol is deep rooted.aramishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02308648707448646351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-71817323376088617242010-04-06T22:19:48.473-07:002010-04-06T22:19:48.473-07:00@Jean Remy: The problems with using scents for com...@Jean Remy: The problems with using scents for communication is that the creature would have to have an olfactory center more sensitive than a T-Rex's nose, and have a good portion of it's brain given over to scent creation/decipherment. <br /><br />The other problem is that scents will mingle and change when there are more than one individual "talking". <br /><br />Finally, you need air movement to "talk" otherwise you end up sitting in your own stink or even worse, a light breeze sets up and you can't talk anymore unless you're talking to someone downwind, and that's only one way.<br /><br />It sounds like a neat way to communicate, but it's not practical.<br /><br />Methods of communication need a level of directionality. Unless your slug people changed color or did something to identify themselves, there would be no way to know who is speaking. In species where individuality is not important, that may not be problem. But for the most part, making scents isn't a very efficient form of communication.<br /><br />Looking at the issue, there are only a few truly viable means of communicating: Sound, Color changing, Light.<br /><br />Cephalopods have shown that very complex color and pattern changing has the possibility of a very rich communication medium.<br /><br />Bioluminescent lights could also be used as a means of communication similar to color changing or in conjunction.<br /><br />Sound is something we're all familiar with, but humans are only familiar with a rather narrow band of the sonic possibilities. <br /><br />Radio is not very likely. It requires some highly unlikely organs to be developed and requires power generation on a scale only seen for short bursts in some animals.kedamono@mac.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093125367755930224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-22795981207681344052010-04-06T17:38:50.805-07:002010-04-06T17:38:50.805-07:00A mere hello in passing, for now, since I'm no...A mere hello in passing, for now, since I'm not on my regular computer, but welcome to another new commenter!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-43586752931856477152010-04-06T13:06:04.536-07:002010-04-06T13:06:04.536-07:00I actually wrote a story from the viewpoint of a b...I actually wrote a story from the viewpoint of a blind sapient race of slug-like creatures that communicated through scent. The were basically intelligent chemical factories able to synthesize almost any scent molecule they'd ever encountered. When humans met them they failed to recognize them as sapient and treated them like animals.<br /><br />However I do believe that with enough observation and study we would determine the complexity of the smells as a language. Any language has an internal logic structure, and while the task of translating it is daunting, recognizing it as a language should not be difficult. That's the theory behind SETI at any rate. For one I was forced to make my sapient slugs a pre-technological society, since, as I've pointed out, technology *will* be recognized as technology. The principles behind a rocket will be the same whether you communicate audibly, visually, by scent or touch or even taste. After all we use "light" (EM radiation in the form of radio waves) to send vocal communications. Therefore while our primary mode of communication is oral, we can use different media to transfer this information.<br /><br />And radio is just too damn practical to NOT be a means of long-distance wireless communication. We just discovered radio waves, we didn't invent then. Any species advanced enough will discover them and see how practical they are at transferring signals, whether the receptor at the other end translates it as flashes of light or bursts of smell makes no difference.<br /><br />If there is a regular language-like pattern, we can find it. Translating it will be tough, but not impossible. We just have to listen with all our senses.Jean-Remyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07186948442919090289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-58547294674790812092010-04-06T07:35:10.204-07:002010-04-06T07:35:10.204-07:00The communication issues with aliens might be ser...The communication issues with aliens might be serious but, I think the problems will be much less about spoken/written language.I'm a vile opposer of the truly alien concept that's fore sure, but there are some things must be taken into account.For example sentience recognisable to us must have eyesight, so if their speech is ultrasound we can still communicate via msn.Pheromone communication or thelepaty, hive mind or such things are either currently consiedered paranormal or impossible, or can1t be acurate enough for sapient creatures(like pheromone clouds getting mixed wth eachoter or so.)The rel problem is at first, the need of physical presence, because our digital formats, program codes, radio signals will be totaly uncompatible with eachoter.(and probably even our methods of distance communication.Who said they will use radio?Thats why I think SETI is pointless).Second,we need to learn eachother's language.Until the learning of the others language, we can communicate with simple pictograms only(and by chemistry and maths),as ther non-verbal signs will also differ quite much if their body is not very,very similar to ours(which is almost sure to be very similar, but also sure to be not, that similar ).<br />I the question of art,I must agree wit the previous commenter, we must at first, recognise art.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172255238294467801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-2754310332563698572010-04-04T18:33:40.211-07:002010-04-04T18:33:40.211-07:00Well, that's a gratuitous little brain explode...Well, that's a gratuitous little brain exploder! But I take your point: Humans trying to imagine something incomprehensible to humans is sort of a definitional nonstarter. <br /><br />There was a reputed Phoenician trade method that amounted to a black box inference, of each party adding or removing goods from 'bid' piles; once the piles stabilized, each took the pile the other had gathered. I never clicked with Cherryh, but I wouldn't be surprised if her method is similar.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-14826112720415032592010-04-03T12:43:36.725-07:002010-04-03T12:43:36.725-07:00It appears to me that this question ("Aliens ...It appears to me that this question ("Aliens can/will be truly and utterly alien!" vs. "No they won't!") is unresolvable.<br /><br />The point of being truly and utterly alien is that the alien's way of life is in some essential way inconceivable to us. The argument against this possibility is "I can't conceive of such a way of life." Well, yeah, you can't. <br /><br />We can have interesting discussions about the topic, and see how far we can stretch our brains to encompass different ways of thinking, but, in the end, if a completely alien thought process is possible, it will remain, by definition, outside the discussion. <br /><br />At least, that is, until we run into such an entity (or observe something only explainable as an artifact of said alien), at which point we can start speculating about the reasons behind what we observe, and maybe in the end discover it's not so alien after all. Maybe.<br /><br />As an aside, C.J. Cherryh does a pretty good job imagining what contact with really alien aliens could be like with the methane breathers in the Chanur series, especially the Knnn. They likely use math, but it doesn't really help in communication, since they ignore any efforts in that direction. What's really interesting is that this does not preclude a form of rudimentary trade. In the broadest sense of the word, communication is indeed possible- you just can't actually <i>talk</i> to them.zmilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07235676056579625819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-29093797717347601962010-04-03T12:39:14.406-07:002010-04-03T12:39:14.406-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.zmilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07235676056579625819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-23373939089369155572010-04-02T09:00:43.983-07:002010-04-02T09:00:43.983-07:00Ferrell - The Japanese written language has a wide...Ferrell - The Japanese written language has a wide range of symbols for numbers. Which symbol for three you use depends on whether you're counting trees, people, livestock...<br /><br />Humans do use colour-coded text to indicate tone, emotional intensity, etc. In the simplified texts used in formal discourse we don't use colour or calligraphy to send those signals, but that's because the simplified black and white text is supposed to indicate a particular tone all its own. Comics, websites, advertising, and hand writing all use colour and shape (And density of marks, and spacing) to express meaning.<br /><br />I believe that the expression 'as simple as black and white' predates mass literacy, but I'm still looking for references on that.<br /><br />Ian_MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com