tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post4388229073727651065..comments2024-03-18T13:11:39.192-07:00Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Techjargon and NomenclatureRickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comBlogger231125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-63865269115752959932011-06-26T07:46:09.144-07:002011-06-26T07:46:09.144-07:00Scott, I agree with you on most of your points, bu...Scott, I agree with you on most of your points, but I still think that their are enough differences that no matter if the hypothetical future space service starts out with either Navy or Air Force type ranks and structure, it will eventually evolve into a unique system, due to it having unique needs and requierments. Whichever Service it uses as a starting point will of course influance its developemnet, but the end result will be different than either one.<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-32021511271463394942011-06-26T03:06:13.673-07:002011-06-26T03:06:13.673-07:00"Something occures to me; some commenters hav...<i>"Something occures to me; some commenters have assumed that even if a space service starts out with Air Force type ranks it would later switch to Navy type ranks. That makes little sense to me; once a military service is established, it actively works to build its own traditions and individual identity; I would expect any military space force to follow the same path, to a greater or lesser extent. So, it would seem reasonable to assume that after a period of adaptation, a military space service would evolve a unique system of ranks and structure, and traditions and procedures, driven by circumstances, experiance, and necessity."</i><br /><br />The reason I lean towards naval rank structures in a space force (wrote fleet there the first time) is partially because I was Navy. However, I have a much better reason: mission equivalency.<br /><br />No Air Force has anything equivalent to anything larger than a PT boat, and even the PT boat has several times the endurance of a bomber or transport (days, not hours).<br /><br />Right now, every spaceship in existence is a specialized airplane. Even the ISS doesn't operate 24/7/365, the crew has a fairly normal 12-15 hour awake period with maybe 8 hours being devoted to whatever projects are going on.<br /><br />In contrast, a ship has someone standing lookout 24/7 (call him the sensor operator). Now, you might be able to have an expert system wake up the captain to tell him that something weird has happened (there's certainly enough other computer programs that do just that), but there are so many non-routine tasks and events that it's easier to keep a larger crew awake in shifts than it is to have a minimal crew waking up every 60 minutes when something goes weird. And I wish I was exaggerating about the time between out-of-parameters events on something as complicated as a submarine or starship.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08876828579688122237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-51584549531623273232011-06-20T17:03:24.456-07:002011-06-20T17:03:24.456-07:00Thucydides:
"Earlier upthread, someone state...Thucydides:<br /><br /><i>"Earlier upthread, someone stated "Tanks are the best way to deal with Tanks". This is accepted "common wisdom", but likr the "Thin Red Line" turns out to be untrue..."</i><br /><br />The "thin red streak tipped with a line of steel" was real enough, just misunderstood when taken out of context. So is the assertion that tanks are the best weapon against other tanks. All other things being equal, they are. When one starts talking about prepared positions and such like, one is going out of the context in which the statement was made.<br /><br /><i>"Computer programming may well have the same received wisdom, and while I can't comment directly on what that might be, I am sure lots of people work under those assumptions and are therefore putting themselves in the wrong box to think outside of....."</i><br /><br />There's very little received wisdom in computer science. That's why it's called a "science" -- assertions have to be mathematically demonstrable. When you go to Data Structures class, for example, you don't just learn the mechanics of lists, trees, arrays, hash tables, etc. You learn the mathematical validations of their uses vis-a-vis each other and in realtion to certain problems in data management. Remember, all computing is, is applied mathematics. There's no box to go outside of if you know the math.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-59318765327501071372011-06-20T16:28:26.375-07:002011-06-20T16:28:26.375-07:00Conjecture is difficult to do, and we are often mi...Conjecture is difficult to do, and we are often misled by supposed historical examples.<br /><br />Earlier upthread, someone stated "Tanks are the best way to deal with Tanks". This is accepted "common wisdom", but likr the "Thin Red Line" turns out to be untrue. Historical examples and operational research going back to the Russio-German "Great Patriotic War" of 1941-45 demonstrates the best way to deal with tanks is prepared positions armed with tank killiing weapons. In the 1940's it was a PAK 75 or 88, in Lebanon the Hezbollah used Koronet ATGM's against Isreaili Merkavas but the effect is the same. Tanks are best used for mobility, thrusts and counter thrusts.<br /><br />Computer programming may well have the same received wisdom, and while I can't comment directly on what that might be, I am sure lots of people work under those assumptions and are therefore putting themselves in the wrong box to think outside of.....Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-56184530129341469412011-06-18T14:54:50.856-07:002011-06-18T14:54:50.856-07:00=Milo=
Realistically, army, navy, and air force...=Milo=<br /><br /><br /><br />Realistically, army, navy, and air force ranks tend to be pretty parallel, just with different names. As for space, this is where things like "translation convention" and "limiting made-up words" come into play.<br /><br />If a space force starts off air force-like and later turns navy-like, you're likely to have officers whose titles are derived from air force ranks (with some centuries of sound change obscuring them), but which in practice have navy-like duties.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-78553195945940579382011-06-18T11:37:28.215-07:002011-06-18T11:37:28.215-07:00Something occures to me; some commenters have assu...Something occures to me; some commenters have assumed that even if a space service starts out with Air Force type ranks it would later switch to Navy type ranks. That makes little sense to me; once a military service is established, it actively works to build its own traditions and individual identity; I would expect any military space force to follow the same path, to a greater or lesser extent. So, it would seem reasonable to assume that after a period of adaptation, a military space service would evolve a unique system of ranks and structure, and traditions and procedures, driven by circumstances, experiance, and necessity.<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-40424622206912864512011-06-01T08:28:43.579-07:002011-06-01T08:28:43.579-07:00Thucydides:
"The second point was addressed ...Thucydides:<br /><br /><i>"The second point was addressed to the various arguments about programming. I can see no break in current programming conventions simply by piling on more CPU power, and ended by suggesting that the situation could not change unless some sort of totally different device arises..."</i><br /><br />I understood that. I was just contextualizing the "brute force" terminology. Brute force means you are either not expert enough to find an elegant solution, or there is no elegant solution for the problem. It is also used in connection with "bloat code" to suggest that microcomputer software practices are inefficient. I was just pointing out that "brute force" and "bloat" are what makes the rich computing environment we have nowdays, because that's just how it has to be done.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-7008433032559535332011-06-01T03:46:35.949-07:002011-06-01T03:46:35.949-07:00The black gang reference to the Babbge machine is ...The black gang reference to the Babbge machine is a half joking hat tip to the power supply of the device, which in the mid 1800s would have been a steam engine. By the turn of the 20th century (in this scenario) IT would have been steam powered for almost half a century, and a server farm would feature a drive shaft running across the ceiling and pulley belts going down to each individual Analytical Engine. even with electric motors being substituted for steam I can still see the terminology of steam engineering remaining.<br /><br />The second point was addressed to the various arguments about programming. I can see no break in current programming conventions simply by piling on more CPU power, and ended by suggesting that the situation could not change unless some sort of totally different device arises (I suggested holographic and quantum devices. I should have said "photonic" in place of holographic).<br /><br />I hope I was clearer this time around...Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-57796137145547829232011-05-30T11:06:55.862-07:002011-05-30T11:06:55.862-07:00Thucydides:
"The actual problem with the Bab...Thucydides:<br /><br /><i>"The actual problem with the Babbage machine and the Analytical Engine turned out to be mid Victorian machine technology wasn't advanced enough to make the precision gears needed for the thing to run smoothly...If an accurate gear cutter existed, we might be talking about the IT department as the "black gang", and your introduction to working in IT would be shoveling coal as a stoker or lubricating the gears."</i><br /><br />I don't think so. Before electronic digital computers there was a wave of electromechanical analog computers, particularly for naval and lad artillery fire control applications. They were precision instruments that required a lot of skilled TLC. I don't think you could describe their operators and maintainers as "black" in the steam engineering sense.<br /><br /><i>"...current computers are essentially brute force devices and supercomputers mostly rely on harnessing even larger clusters of processors and hard drives to the point of diminishing returns."</i><br /><br />The whole "brute force" thing is an old school mainfrma programmer's attitude about modern computing. He sees elegance and compactness as virtues, because they were in his day. But elegance and compactness come at the cost of requiring preconditioned data and limiting output to text only. With 21st Century computing resources, the programmer has the power to programatically validate the data. For example, any program I write that uses human-generated data is at least half defensive code, designed to catch data input errors and go back to the user for correction. And when it comes time to output a response, I can rely ont the user's web browser to display a wide variety of style combinations, fetch numerous images, and even do some computing for me locally on the user's machine.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-60215882951483626782011-05-30T00:50:25.488-07:002011-05-30T00:50:25.488-07:00Reading the very first .00001 percent of this mass...Reading the very first .00001 percent of this massive, massive comment thread got me thinking about lingual complications in neo-medival space cultures.<br /><br />Mostly I used it as an excuse for them to not have an ISO-9000 compatible standard for class names. The standoff and defense focused Earth forces tend to call nearly every class not in their own ranks 'ship destroyer' because it doesn't matter whether it is small, large or armed with missiles or LASERs so long as it is still roaring at you on an assault vector and loaded down like a gargantuan long firework.<br /><br />Conversely, the Martians call light craft 'speedboats' due to their annoying tendency to rush past their ranged weapons and duck through their poor point defense nets. So you would hear "Motora de mierda!" A lot.Aaron Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866529245944356290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-11387226686309949312011-05-27T20:49:01.447-07:002011-05-27T20:49:01.447-07:00(SA Phil)
Heh .. yes .. but the fans I am speakin...(SA Phil)<br /><br />Heh .. yes .. but the fans I am speaking with wont/cant/are unable to see the distinction.<br /><br />They see the entire thing as an endorsement of the show's realism. <br /><br />they see Star Fury and insist it means the fighters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-3307690800099252172011-05-27T20:42:19.941-07:002011-05-27T20:42:19.941-07:00Real world interest
Around 1995 ("two years ...<i>Real world interest<br /><br />Around 1995 ("two years into the show"), NASA expressed an interest in the design as a work vessel for the International Space Station. They apparently consider the design to "make the most sense" for zero-g work due to the thruster and wing setup. They approached the shows co-executive producer (J. Michael Straczynski) for permission to use the design, which was given provided the Starfury name was not altered.[13]</i><br /><br />That's from the wiki. I remembered reading that when the show aired. Doesn't seem unreasonable. We're not talking about building a real starfighter here, just a tug using the same engine configuration.jollyreaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05673007647719726846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-12265838354025101112011-05-27T19:39:38.907-07:002011-05-27T19:39:38.907-07:00(SA Phil)
You haven't heard the one about how...(SA Phil)<br /><br />You haven't heard the one about how Babylon 5 is entirely real spaceships because supposedly NASA wanted permission to use the Star Fury design? <br /><br />hehAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-1601033419643740872011-05-27T19:34:29.757-07:002011-05-27T19:34:29.757-07:00B5 was pseudo-realistic. Not entirely realistic bu...B5 was pseudo-realistic. Not entirely realistic but made the right nods to reality and excursions from reality seemed intentional rather than from pure ignorance or apathy. C'mon, newtonian fighters, rotating hab sections? It's a frickin' bone and they're throwing it to us. ;)jollyreaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05673007647719726846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-12006115220299235722011-05-27T19:06:03.678-07:002011-05-27T19:06:03.678-07:00Tony,
Who'd believe it?
=====
Weber put some...Tony,<br /><br />Who'd believe it?<br /><br />=====<br />Weber put something like that in his first Honor Harrington book.<br /><br />Cardones reprogrammed a nuclear warhead missile on the fly to get it past the Q ships defenses. <br /><br />Of course -- Weber isn't really the most "believable" but it can be entertaining. <br /><br />Most Science Fiction fans will believe almost anything though. Just look at all the people who try to justify the science of Star Trek, or those who claim Babylon 5 was realistic because some of the space fighters obeyed Newtonian physics in space.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-89358723420686484972011-05-27T15:22:15.549-07:002011-05-27T15:22:15.549-07:00Milo: "It's like I said before. To get a ...Milo: "<i>It's like I said before. To get a computer to do something for you, you need to be able to explain to the computer what you want. Explaining to a computer what you want is, per definition, coding.</i>"<br /><br />"Yesterday I had this document that needed filing, so I coded a subordinate (human) worker in my office to file it for me, as I was busy."<br /><br />Doesn't sound right. I suppose you could try and distinguish between strong AIs with no free will being "coded" to follow an order ("file this document"), and fellow sapients (that just happen to exist as software in a computer) being ordered / asked / whatever to do something.<br /><br />IOW, whilst coding may technically be the correct term to use, I suspect it'll fall out of favour the closer we get to having strong AIs, which is probably what the debate over "coding" strong AIs here is about.Telerosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-26103474967153672892011-05-27T11:38:04.636-07:002011-05-27T11:38:04.636-07:00SA Phil:
"I have an advanced, working comput...SA Phil:<br /><br /><i>"I have an advanced, working computer model, the abstract data will be availible. <br /><br />For a more specific instance, For automotive control systems we use data lookup tables precisely because there are thousands of holes in our Mathmatical models. <br /><br />Thus, fill those holes, the need goes away."</i><br /><br />Okay, but what about abstract data types?Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-3222964750276445492011-05-27T11:28:27.996-07:002011-05-27T11:28:27.996-07:00(SA Phil)
Was in the middle of that - but ran int...(SA Phil)<br /><br />Was in the middle of that - but ran into an issue on the floor. <br /><br />===========<br /><br />I have an advanced, working computer model, the abstract data will be availible. <br /><br />For a more specific instance, For automotive control systems we use data lookup tables precisely because there are thousands of holes in our Mathmatical models. <br /><br />Thus, fill those holes, the need goes away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-81177507979962471852011-05-27T11:10:18.408-07:002011-05-27T11:10:18.408-07:00BTW, Phil, were you going to tell us about abstrac...BTW, Phil, were you going to tell us about abstract data types or weren't you?Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-30556417432368846262011-05-27T11:09:19.383-07:002011-05-27T11:09:19.383-07:00SA Phil:
"However,
A programer struggling a...SA Phil:<br /><br /><i>"However, <br />A programer struggling against time as hail of incomming missiles nears to adjust how the point defense system's logic could be pretty dramatic in a Sci fi story."</i><br /><br />Who'd believe it?Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-59032516687211812472011-05-27T10:50:53.030-07:002011-05-27T10:50:53.030-07:00Tony,
Red herring. Once again, on-the-fly program...Tony,<br /><br />Red herring. Once again, on-the-fly programming was never an issue. You created it out of a misinterpretation of something I said about the prudence of humans supervising automated systems in combat. If you wish to persist in this misinterpretation, that's a you problem, not a me problem.<br /><br />==========<br /><br />How is this a red herring? - this was me describing a preference in story telling. <br /><br />I didnt say "Tony's model is more interesting in sci fi stories" <br /><br />Since you said you didnt go with the on-the-fly stuff that I misinterpreted you saying before. <br /><br />However, <br />A programer struggling against time as hail of incomming missiles nears to adjust how the point defense system's logic could be pretty dramatic in a Sci fi story. <br /><br />(SA Phil)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-39248254914656218232011-05-27T09:19:04.080-07:002011-05-27T09:19:04.080-07:00SA Phil:
"Those algorithms are just associat...SA Phil:<br /><br /><i>"Those algorithms are just associations based on the underlying physics. <br /><br />Which is already standardized, see: design of the universe. <br /><br />You basically just need a computer that is "a whiz" at Differential equations and making those associations. <br /><br />Herring, thy color is red."</i><br /><br />Okay...tell us why an abstract data type is "abstract".<br /><br /><i>"I agree the computer future I imagined/ described makes for an aweful boring Sci Fi story.<br /><br />In a sci fi story I think on-the-fly programers and custom software solutions would be far more interesting."</i><br /><br />Red herring. Once again, on-the-fly programming was never an issue. You created it out of a misinterpretation of something I said about the prudence of humans supervising automated systems in combat. If you wish to persist in this misinterpretation, that's a <i>you</i> problem, not a me problem.<br /><br />WRT custom software solutions, custom hardware (i.e. military systems) => custom software solutions. If you don't think so, can you provide a formal description of a programming system in which general purpose software can be tailored to custom solutions without human intervention?Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-3778133317124284662011-05-27T08:36:19.862-07:002011-05-27T08:36:19.862-07:00(SA Phil)
I agree the computer future I imagined/...(SA Phil)<br /><br />I agree the computer future I imagined/ described makes for an aweful boring Sci Fi story.<br /><br />In a sci fi story I think on-the-fly programers and custom software solutions would be far more interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-43242740379297809642011-05-27T08:34:16.307-07:002011-05-27T08:34:16.307-07:00Tony,
the future of software is going to be domin...Tony,<br /><br />the future of software is going to be dominated by standardize algorithms that can be autowritten to any spec?<br /><br />----------<br />Those algorithms are just associations based on the underlying physics. <br /><br />Which is already standardized, see: design of the universe. <br /><br />You basically just need a computer that is "a whiz" at Differential equations and making those associations. <br /><br />Herring, thy color is red. <br /><br />(SA Phil)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-12979004983756718112011-05-27T08:08:10.894-07:002011-05-27T08:08:10.894-07:00We can't develop the optimum POS interface sol...<i><br />We can't develop the optimum POS interface solution, that everyone can agree on, but the future of software is going to be dominated by standardize algorithms that can be autowritten to any spec? </i><br /><br />The only possible solution I can imagine are the neural nets and learning algorithms. That robot I linked to above, it's teaching itself how to walk. The old model of programming says you have to teach it how to walk on every terrain. Inside on a carpet, fine. Outdoors on wet grass, especially on an incline? You don't program that, it can't walk it. But this one can learn how through trial and error. <br /><br />That strikes me as something I might buy in a novel 20 years out but wouldn't but it for Next Sunday AD. Except it's here and working. It's real. <br /><br />There's certain levels of disbelief you can run with for a story. Zombies, so long as nobody tries to explain them as natural creatures, you can run with that. Working out the implications of telepathy and mind-reading in the modern world if it suddenly existed can be fine. There's a very rich history in scifi of adding one impossible thing to the world and exploring the implications. But there's a sort of agreement between the author and readers about whether or not they're saying it's really true. It's the difference between "let's pretend" and "no, seriously, I think this could happen."jollyreaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05673007647719726846noreply@blogger.com