Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: The Time Scale of Space II - Travel

Thanks, and don't be embarrassed! There are on...

2012-01-18T20:16:09.252-08:00

Thanks, and don't be embarrassed! There are only so many ideas you can juggle at the same time ... and honestly I think you're better off going into detail with respect to orbital ships rather than onboard entertainment. I don't know that many people really want to read about people playing 2010s-era console games if you're also talking about orbiting Mars or mining Ceres or what have you, and Star Trek-style entertainment is known well enough that it can be a stand-in for "some sort of gaming we don't know about yet".

Besides, although motion gaming has been around in some form for at least 20 years (Power Glove, anyone?), it's still crude enough that it can't do much more than track an extended arm or leg. I believe that the precision necessary to make motion gaming similar to standard gaming practically requires some form of AI, especially with the hands-free approach Microsoft is taking: you need something that can identify different parts of your body, something that can track those parts, and something that can translate what movement of those parts means.

While it may be different in scale, it doesn't seem to me to be different in concept from the process your brain goes through when you move your arms. If we can develop technology that will allow you to stand in front of a screen and interact with a game as you would in real life - grasping, turning, throwing - then I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that we could also have the technology to project the game around you.

In fact, the latter may be closer than the former. I guess there are places that actually rent virtual reality games for corporate events and such. Some of those aren't so difficult to manage (the golf simulator, for example), but the goggles-on-your-head type is the path that I think leads to your holodeck.

Belated welcome to a new commenter! I'm a bit...

2012-01-18T19:49:02.963-08:00

Belated welcome to a new commenter!

I'm a bit embarrassed to say that none of these ideas even crossed my mind (granted that Kinect-style tech is a pretty recent development, at least for widespread use). Though I suppose you could say that the holodeck concept prefigures this general concept, if not the specific techs.

The wireless issues shouldn't be a problem, especially by the time interplanetary travel is common!

With respect to onboard entertainment, perhaps the...

2012-01-16T06:01:03.312-08:00

With respect to onboard entertainment, perhaps there's a way to address multiple issues at once: games that require physical activity on the part of the player. Even existing motion-sensing games (Kinect, Move, Wii) would give the crew a way to keep reasonably active in a confined space ... of course the consoles would have to work differently than the direction they're heading now. There's no reason to assume that communication with Earth/home planet would include an always-on connection to Xbox Live!

FPS games might be a good idea, particularly for military missions. Again, it could achieve multiple objectives: keep the passengers busy and give them some sort of training, depending on what the mission is. Foot soldiers might get some benefit out of a Call of Duty sequel, although that might be better off done with motion controllers; what seems more likely, ship-based combat, would also lend itself better to games/simulators (StarCraft?), and could double as practical training for the crew, although that does lead into the discussion about the degree to which flight would be manual (if any).

It would be significantly more important to consider the psychology behind the games and the opponents available than it is here, but perhaps the games could serve not only as activities, but also as monitoring tools. It might be time to take Watson aside if you notice that the only game she's played in the last month is Halo 11: Outer Planets, and she's constantly setting up deathmatches with Jones. A balance between competitive and cooperative games might also be good so that you have an entertainment system that appeals to a greater number of passengers and crew.

I suppose something else to consider is the technology that goes into the controllers, motion or traditional. I really don't know if wireless controllers would be a problem on a ship: would there be interference/would they generate interference with other systems on the ship? Might there be problems using traditional means of power (batteries/battery packs)? It seems to me that none of this should be an issue, but then I've never tried to use my consoles anywhere other than houses or apartments, and there may be a difference between having one or two consoles around and having one for each passenger and crew member.

The ability to provide a reasonably attractive die...

2009-10-20T15:23:36.525-07:00

The ability to provide a reasonably attractive diet at a reasonable price strikes me as one of the key prerequesites for true colonization.

I pretty much agree (no surprise) with your comment on spacecraft assembled in space - in fact, I'm working on a blog post on the subject.

In the future of space colonization, beef may be a...

2009-10-19T20:55:48.419-07:00

In the future of space colonization, beef may be a luxury item...I fear that most people living off-world will have to make due with alge, yeast, and bacterial paste; at least until a colony is very well established and can afford such luxuries.
(Bob's Rocket Service slogen, "Steaks in Space!") KFC/Morton Thyikol...McDonalds/Rocketdyne?

People always imagine that in the future mining companies or manufacturing consortiums will rule our off-world colonies...but it's just as likely that Budwiser, Coca-cola, or KFC will.

Anyway...spacecraft assymbled in orbit may be composed of standardized mix-and-match modules that the client orders from a menu to suit his needs. Grade of Nav package, type of mission module (passenger hab, research hab, cargo pallet, ect); size, type, and number of propellant/fuel tanks; kind of power and propulsion module, and the heat management system suitable for the final assembly.

Ferrell

To take Jean's last point first, I don't t...

2009-10-19T15:24:04.780-07:00

To take Jean's last point first, I don't think it is about comfort but efficiency. If most of the crew's effort is going into keeping themselves from going batty with cabin fever, it won't be a very productive mission.

But exploration will have a longer range than general travel because you can be more selective with crews.

It could also depend on the nature of the mission. Face it - if we found a black obelisk out there, we'd push limits that we wouldn't push for 'routine' exploration.

On food, much as I like beef it is poorly suited space conditions, taking up an awful lot of life support per prime rib. Even on Earth, I imagine that in a hundred years the only beef will be range fed, raised on grasslands best suited to cattle grazing.

Chickens, shrimp, that sort of thing, seems much better suited to space, where - an irony Clarke once pointed out - space is always at a premium.

Growing beef in vats somehow strikes me as the culinary equivalent of monorails.

Saber: on Livestock Well, we're pretty good a...

2009-10-18T21:43:04.060-07:00

Saber: on Livestock

Well, we're pretty good at freezing eggs and sperm, I'm not sure about fetuses but I doubt it, they're already pretty complex, at least past a certain point. I think just-fertilized eggs can be frozen. Also one thing we can't yet do if grow them full term in vitro so you'll need to carry at least one female to serve as incubator. Medium term however I think vat-grown meat is more likely: livestock takes a lot of room. That depends on whether we can grow organs in vats thought. For now the results are promising but still it is a technology in its infancy. However, since a self-sustaining food supply would be a primary goal, battery-raised chickens might be easier to export to a colony than beef. Chicken battery farms are basically the animal equivalent of a hydroponics garden at this point. PeTA will no doubt have a fit, but the first Extra-Terrestrial franchise might be KFC.

Rick: on Phase 1 Sleep

Yes basically when you nod on and off, you enter Phase 1 and then wake up. Generally the only reason you realize you are nodding off is a/ you're tired and b/ there is only a disconnect because your head in in a different position. This is unlike the phases of dream that allow dream (Phase 3 and REM) in which case you awaken with the memory of those dreams, and the memory of time having elapsed. Also, note how much harder it is when the alarm clock wakes you as you naturally slip back up into the upper phases, opposite the times when you are forcibly awakened during a dream and feel confused and disoriented.

Of course maintaining this extended sleep poses a LOT of problems, even without the psychological ones: muscle atrophy, and bed sores, to name just two. The latter is caused by blood pooling in your back around your spine. This is actually lethal: people in hospitals have died from bedsores. Depending on how much you equate psychology with brain physiology, there will be problems with the reduced electrochemical activity and production of neurotransmitters. So beyond simply the idea you'd go crazy from being unconscious is the actual physical damage to the neurons... meaning you'd go crazy from being unconscious too long.

Hey I said phase 1 sleep was an idea, I never claimed it was a good one.

Oh one last point:

"Another thought is that if journeys to the outer planets even in the use of Solar-Electric Drives such as the VASIMIR will take several months or even years to reach from earth. Would that limitation keep exploration of those planets strictly to robots and other probes until a higher impulse drive allows for manned exploration?"

It would be very sad indeed if our drive to explore would be dampened by our desire for comfort. Cristobal Colon took months to cross the ocean, Magellan's fleet took years to circumnavigate the globe (and Magellan didn't make it.) Have we grown so damned lazy that such a duration--in conditions of comfort that would make the sailors of the Santa Maria pale with envy--is unpalatable? If they need some idiot to volunteer for the trip because nobody wants to leave the comfort of their suburban houses, sign me up. I'll go.

"One final challenge for snoozing away the...

2009-10-18T16:19:43.074-07:00
"One final challenge for snoozing away the tedium of spaceflight is that it's sort of the extreme of a sedentary lifestyle. After months of it you might need weeks to get back into active condition."

That might justify a sort of mixed shift in the hibernation wort table with one group being active and two groups either preparing or recovering for their hibernation term while the rest of the crew and/or passengers are left in hypersleep. One might potentially extend the awake hours with said entertainment and work, however a vast majority of said entertainment had better be interactive and/or whose experience changes with each use.

One example would be seen in a scene from John Carptenter's The Thing where Childs and Palmer are watching a VHS or Beta cassette recording of what I presume to be a late 70s game show when Palmer states "I know how this ends" and changes tapes. On such long trips, you don't want that little interruption of distraction to occur often.

As for the manned passenger transport and automated cargo transport, well from what I have been reading in the comments, this seems to be more likely arrangement over manned passenger and cargo craft. Though now that I think about it, when it comes to livestock would it be better to transport full grown adults or some kind of fetal or even young offsprings of said livestock if a settlement is capable of handling these animals and even then would it be automated or manned.

Or are future off-world colonists suck with a vegan diet and in-vitro meat?

Another thought is that if journeys to the outer planets even in the use of Solar-Electric Drives such as the VASIMIR will take several months or even years to reach from earth. Would that limitation keep exploration of those planets strictly to robots and other probes until a higher impulse drive allows for manned exploration?

- Sabersonic
Gmail Address

Is this in effect 'nodding off' sleep? O...

2009-10-18T11:53:46.642-07:00
Is this in effect 'nodding off' sleep?

One final challenge for snoozing away the tedium of spaceflight is that it's sort of the extreme of a sedentary lifestyle. After months of it you might need weeks to get back into active condition.

Cool Sleep: what if you can keep your subjects in ...

2009-10-17T17:42:01.380-07:00
Cool Sleep: what if you can keep your subjects in Stage 1 sleep? Mo Alpha Waves but the appearance of Theta waves create a non-dream state from which it is easy to emerge. In fact, subjects who are awakened in Phase 1 sleep do not even remember having been unconscious at all. Basically it's very much like the space of an eye blink without any internal sense of elapsed time, or even awareness of a disconnect.

I forgot to add a welcome to the Other Rick! Ian ...

2009-10-17T15:16:31.194-07:00
I forgot to add a welcome to the Other Rick!

Ian - Really interesting point about cool sleep and dreams. Possibly dreams are themselves a corrective mechanism; I seem to recall that if you constantly disrupt REM sleep, when dreaming occurs, subjects start going wiggy even though permitted non-REM sleep.

That said, I'd worry about the sensory deprivation effects of very prolonged 'normal' sleep.

Short form, nothing I've heard of suggests that any form of extended sleep/coma/freeze/whatever is a 'Realistic [TM]' tech, i.e. one we can reasonably count on to be practical in the midfuture. (Like solar or nuke electric drives, for example.) And on the whole, in spite of gentech, monkeying around with the human organism looks trickier the more we learn.

On transport, 'cattle' - more broadly, complex living things - are one sort of cargo that might indeed require human tending, because they require a life support system.

One option for big freight carriers on slow orbits is to relieve the crew at intervals. In particular I've thought of entire stations being built in Earth space (where most of the building cages will be, for a long time) and flown out to their eventual positions on slow orbits.

For the crew it isn't a 'voyage,' it is a tour of duty. Life aboard Callisto Orbital is much the same while en route to Callisto as it will be once it gets there, except for not running shuttles to the surface.

The most high value or sensitive cargoes will take fast orbits in the baggage pods of passenger ships, which works fine for story purposes, because those are the kinds of cargoes most likely to figure in a story anyway.

Any cargo transported over long distances would ha...

2009-10-17T10:33:58.797-07:00
Any cargo transported over long distances would have to be valuable. Raw ore can be processed on-site or sent by slow low energy orbits to a processor. Goods that would need to be transported by cargo ship might include high-end electronics, confidential high-value data, luxury foods, radioactives, high-energy or exotic materials, and medical supplies. Habitats away from any source of volatiles will also need regular shipments of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen. None of these really need maintenance, although the data might need a shepherd for legal and security purposes. Cargo spacecraft will likely have minimal crews, like today's cargo water ships.

And they won't be in cold sleep or cryo, even if it works. If it's your job to repair the machinery, it doesn't make sense to install extra machinery to freeze/keep/thaw you while everything else is running.

'Cool sleep' or any form of extended sleep has the problem of dreams. Short of a medically-induced coma (A very dangerous procedure, with severe health effects) we don't know how to turn off the brain. How sane do you think you would be after 56 hours trapped in your own sub-consciousness?

Ian_M

Rick (who is the on writing the blog) I agree with...

2009-10-17T10:06:25.955-07:00
Rick (who is the on writing the blog) I agree with all of that with a minor caveat. In one episode Serenity transported cattle. I doubt we'd be transporting cattle in such a way, however could there be delicate cargo that require constant human attention and maintenance? That would justify the need for manned cargo ships.

'Cool sleep' seems a lot less radical than...

2009-10-17T09:59:39.062-07:00
'Cool sleep' seems a lot less radical than cold sleep. If you could induce sleep for about 56 hours at a time, people will be up and about only every 3rd day. So 9 months in space only feels like 3 months, but you can also reduce by two thirds the cabin space needed for the galley, lounge, etc.

Cool sleep or not, you'll probably want spin gravity for deep space travel, even for a few weeks, if only for the convenience. One minor unfortunate consequence is no viewports. Contra Winch, I think viewports are generally desirable to avoid the cooped up sensation, even if there's nothing much to see for most of the trip. But looking out of a spinning hab would probably be disorienting.

'Assassin' role playing games are probably not a great idea in the confines of a long mission spacecraft! :-) But games of some sort, and other distractions, are highly desirable, especially for transports.

Whether or not you have luxury space liners, any setting with extensive human presence in deep space means passenger ships; in fact most human space travel will be passenger traffic.

Much as I like mixed cargo-passenger ships for story purposes (Serenity at the low end, 'Indiamen' at the high end), it is much more likely that cargo goes by robotic craft on slow orbits. Though passenger ships might carry a cargo pod or two, the equivalent of baggage/express cars on passenger trains.

Note, by the way, that in the examples I give the only difference between the two types is the payload section, a relatively low-mass passenger hab versus a cargo bay with much larger capacity.

This doesn't necessarily mean modular ships, especially since the drive sections of passenger ships need to be 'human rated,' while those of robot freighter don't. But it probably leads to design families, e.g. two versions of the same basic drive section, one human rated, the other not.

Oh, I forgot: In response to Sabersonic: I wasn&#...

2009-10-17T09:54:40.178-07:00
Oh, I forgot:

In response to Sabersonic: I wasn't trying to advocate gaming as the sole means of distraction, and actually even using it as a means of therapy. It was meant to supplement other activities that had been talked about, such as scientific work, hydroponics tending etc...

Ian: made perfect sense to me. --though you did m...

2009-10-17T09:50:26.683-07:00
Ian: made perfect sense to me.

--though you did misattribute the quote ;)--

This article tells me more than anything what the spirit in those cry places is like: the popsicles are considered dead, nothing more, nothing less. They don't really believe what they advertise, but then again who does? As I said, cryo is a very very very expensive form of burial.

However, you are right. I simply started on the premise it was impossible, but even if it were possible it would require extensive (and massive) equipment. Maybe you could reduce some of it if the facilities were at endpoints, but that means sending the gear up ahead of time or fabricating it on location, so the first colonists won't enjoy a trip sponsored by Marie Callender.

Rick: "I think you can imagine the global dam...

2009-10-17T06:02:22.290-07:00
Rick: "I think you can imagine the global damage on a body when trillions of cells are ripped apart."

It's even trickier when you have to repair the dmaage caused by the cryo-facility employees playing baseball with the client's frozn head.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Baseball+slugger+frozen+head+used+batting+practice+whistleblower+book+claims/2060438/story.html

Cold-water fish have adaptations to deal with freezing. Humans, not so much. I have to question whether cryo would really be worth the effort. Even if it wokred, which I honestly doubt. First you'd need the facilities and personnel to properly freeze the patient, then you'd need the equipment to keep them frozen, and then you'd need the facilities and personnel to defrost them. To say nothing of the hospital equipment you'd need on-hand just in case something went wrong. And you'd still need to haul food, water, oxygen, etc around for those times when the crew are out of cryo. All it does is add a layer of complexity to life support design.

My apologies if this post is incoherent. I've been over it twice to fix it, so it should be okay. I just woke up 15 minutes ago and my brain isn't really working yet.

Ian_M

Re: Cellular freeze damage. The inventor of froze...

2009-10-17T04:55:30.411-07:00
Re: Cellular freeze damage. The inventor of frozen foods, Clarence Birdseye, discovered accidentally while ice fishing. It was so cold out that the caught fish were almost instantly frozen as he pulled them out. He noticed that they tasted good even after many days frozen. However, when he tried to slow freeze fish it had a degraded taste, due to the cell damage.

Also, if you've looked at ice from a tray vs. ice in a sculpture, you'll note that the sculptural ice doesn't have all those white bubbles in it. That is caused because air gets trapped under the frozen top layer. Sculptural ice is frozen from the bottom up.

I don't think that the problem is the final temperature so much as the insulating value of the human body. You need to freeze the whole thing evenly and rapidly. I suspect the process would involve a preliminary hibernation state. Then an infusion of radio triggered endothermic chemicals, probably replacing the blood just prior to freezing. Once the whole body is enfused, the whole thing is triggered with a radio pulse to snap from the liquid to solid form.

Perhaps I should remember to add a tag when I post...

2009-10-17T00:22:02.047-07:00
Perhaps I should remember to add a tag when I post here:

Another Rick, not the one writing the blog.

The main issue with long-range power lasers is Jon...

2009-10-17T00:20:15.666-07:00
The main issue with long-range power lasers is Jon's Law:

"Any interesting space drive is a weapon of mass destruction."

Who are you willing to let have control of a multi-gigawatt laser system that can easily hit spacecraft sized targets at 10AU? How much does that list shrink when you consider that you are within 1AU of that laser station?

"As an aside, if we could build a big enou...

2009-10-16T23:45:01.765-07:00
"As an aside, if we could build a big enough laser, we could have laser-powered electric drives."

That is pretty much what I had in mind when I was talking about transmitting the solar generated energy via laser beams to a spacecraft fitted with a laser receiver to convert said laser energy into electrical energy to power such drives that would otherwise have a decreased performance and acceleration beyond a certain distance from the sun.

Granted, I have yet to hear of any successful tests of laser delivered electricity (or of any laser delivered electricity for that matter) so I have no idea if it is a successful alternative to pure solar-electric generation.

As for hibernation or hyper sleep, well that was just one idea to keep the stir crazy from affecting too many of the onboard crew. Now that I think of it, there would probably be a lengthy preparation and recovery period to and from long term hibernation since the human body isn't really designed for such long periods of inactivity. A

s for electronic and virtual entertainment, well it is a good idea but it shouldn't be the only source of distraction of the crew beyond a busy work schedule, especially one so dependent upon electricity. Perhaps maintaining the onboard oxygen and food hydroponics and aeroponics for something a little less stressful?

- Sabersonic
Gmail Address

Oh yes, one last note. Perhaps a good way to relea...

2009-10-16T23:11:28.219-07:00
Oh yes, one last note. Perhaps a good way to release tensions is to embark a good selection of multiplayer FPS's. Therapy includes stuffing the two people with a problem in Halo 35.4 and let them go at it.

Other roleplaying scenarios can also help. In Iowa, because of the severe weather (lots of snowstorms and several inches of snow and sub-zero temperatures) the dorms could get quite cooped up. One standard activity that was organized was Hitman. The students are given targets they need to tag. If you tag a target, you have to kill whoever is on their lists. If it was a good player, you might have a half-dozen targets now. Some clever ways "assassinations" were carried off: A clever set-up included a tape recorder that was triggered when a person opened the door saying Boom. The tape recorder was a "bomb." Another person convinced a girl to help him set up a friend. She agreed. Turns out she was the target.

Scratch that. Paranoia is probably not a good thing to introduce to your crew at this time.

Rick: I believe your figure of 5 tons per square m...

2009-10-16T23:02:25.988-07:00
Rick: I believe your figure of 5 tons per square meter of radiation shielding is based on shadow shields specifically designed to sponge off gamma rays from nuclear reactors, which are not a concern when dealing with natural solar radiation. Gamma protection requires high density materials (lead, beryllium, and tungsten) while solar radiation requires less massive materials. It might even be possible to use magnetic fields to divert them since most solar radiation is electrically charged. Let's not forget that our primary radiation shield is not the atmosphere but the Van Allen Belt.

As an aside, if we could build a big enough laser, we could have laser-powered electric drives. Keep the laser at a suitable orbit (most likely an L point) and shoot it at the ship, and you get both an efficient electric drive and the advantage of a far reduced mass since the laser is not part of the ship.

On hibernation and cryo:

--Hibernation should be possible. There are plenty of mammals that enter reduced-activity periods (hibernation--duh) Eastern monks (Shaolin or some other school, I forget) have shown an ability to endure cold without shivering (which wastes energy) we've mentioned induced hypothermia and comas. So the human body should be adaptable for hibernation, possibly even as-is genetically thereby avoiding the messy genetic manipulation thing that will have religious watchdogs go nuts.

--Cryo, on the other hand, is far more problematic, implants or not. The issue is the formation of ice crystals inside our cells (we are "ugly bags of mostly-water" after all) The problem with ice crystals (high school physics) is that ice is less dense that liquid water, which means ice will *expand* in the cell... and break the cell membrane and do to the nucleus (and the DNA it carries), the mitochondria, and all sorts of little unimportant things like that. I think you can imagine the global damage on a body when trillions of cells are ripped apart. The idea of repairing them one by one is staggering. It will really take a miracle to un-popsicle-ize all the people simmering in nitrogen tanks. As of right now that's just a very expensive form of burial. In the future, without extensive modification, also. The only way I see it could be done would be to instantly drop your temperature to absolute zero, thereby stopping any change at the atomic level instantly (hence, ice cannot even form). Since reaching absolute zero (not to mention instantly) is, well, impossible, there goes that idea.

With travel times that long, there might be a grea...

2009-10-16T13:31:23.156-07:00
With travel times that long, there might be a great deal of one-way passengers...If you are going to spend a year or two going somewhere, it would be easier for people going there for it to be the start a new life, then for the trip being a major pause in your life...

Instead of sleeping away the trip, games might become popular (chess, checkers, go, majoh, poker, rummy, ect)or even a new form of game could evolve to hold the crew's off-duty attention. I doubt that a really physical game would be a good idea in the cramped volume of a spacecraft, but you never know. Digitally stored movies and e-books could also become popular on these long trips.

Another thing that comes to mind is: would a prize for the best and lightest radiation sheilding be offered by various space agencies? It could happen...

I suppose, technically, a VASIMR drive IS a torch drive...just a very low powered one.

Having both fast and slow spacecraft, one type for freight and one for passengers, seems likely. Slow and reliable vs. fast and conveniant, sounds like something people would prefer.

Ferrell

Jim - The comments will accept HTML link tags. ...

2009-10-16T10:55:03.074-07:00
Jim - The comments will accept HTML link tags.

Hibernation is likely doable; making it safe is another matter. (Heinlein sometimes mentioned a 1 in 3 death rate for cold sleep.)

Solar electric is quite unrelated to solar sailing (though the big solar wings might be called 'sails'). For solar electric drive the sun is just the electricity source, feeding an electric drive such as ion or plasma jet.

Solar gravitation does drop off with distance, but the problem isn't gravity, it is getting decent acceleration in order to build up speed.

On radiation, providing full (presummably average Earth equivalent) shielding protection apparently requires 5 tons per square meter, which would pretty much rule out travel. But so far as I can tell, a hab structure should provide decent shielding for a period of a few months.

The biggest problem is for ships' crews, who over a career would presumably spend years 'underway.'

There might be something like a lifetime limit of a couple of years, which means a very different crewing system from the traditional maritime model.