Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Will Hollywood Ever Be Accurate About Space?

My apologies for letting this lie for so long. As...

2011-10-06T01:33:02.594-07:00

My apologies for letting this lie for so long.

As far as 'eyecandy' goes, if you're going to assume manning General Quarters more-or-less with lots of notice (something that we were never allowed to do when I was in the service), then you can always abuse a shower scene, someone skinning into their suit, and then pulling the armored coveralls over the top. For that matter, if you're basically using a .5mm wetsuit with a hard-hat collar as your space suit, you don't even need the shower scene. You can just have someone changing from the lightweight every-day coveralls to the armored battlestations ones, with a helmet floating next to them. Or several someones.

I would still have the General Alarm go off, and have people lock down helmets and/or crash cages, even if we just had a setup scene with people getting ready.

Have some people joking around before the alarm, and then all joking stops and you get the shift from Mary and Tom to Lt. Mericle and Chief Clark (or 'Weps' and 'Eng').

You still need to carefully rachet up the tension. Most civilians don't do well with the 'hours of mind-numbing boredome punctuated by moments of mind-blowing terror' in a movie, after all.

I for one welcome our new alien overlords.

2011-09-28T11:31:28.254-07:00

I for one welcome our new alien overlords.

This http://lablemminglounge.blogspot.com/2011/09/...

2011-09-28T10:37:08.329-07:00

This
http://lablemminglounge.blogspot.com/2011/09/viewing-imaginary-spacecraft-from.html

has a good point about SFnal spacecraft.

Being woken from a deep sleep by a klackson going ...

2011-09-26T20:27:04.254-07:00

Being woken from a deep sleep by a klackson going off in your ear and jumping up before realizing that you're already at your battlestation and everyone laughing...then later the tension while the point defenses fire and everyone waiting for that Bang! that means one got through; or even worse, NOT hearing it.

The change from easy going and laughing to quiet and serious should show the tension; going from saying "Bob" and "Sarah" to "Mission Specialist Kline" and "Pilot Lynch" would also should convey tension. Just little things make all the difference.

Ferrell

The only unscheduled emergency that would leave a ...

2011-09-26T18:45:44.965-07:00

The only unscheduled emergency that would leave a crew scambling for their gear would be an in flight emergency caused by the catastrophic failure of a piece of equipment. In old navy terms something like a steam line rupturing (aren't you glad most ships use diesel or gas turbine power these days?).

Even then, given the rather sedate nature of space travel outside of re-entry, aerobraking or power on manouevres, most emergencies would be more in the nature of the HAL 9000 suddenly interrupting your conversation with:

"I've just picked up a fault in the AE35 unit. It's going to go 100% failure in 72 hours."

Most of the stuff with radioactive fluid, high energy ions or other really dangerous material would be on the far side of a pretty solid bulkhead, if not at the end of a very long boom separating it from the crew hab, so even then the scramble might be to the control room to grab the robotic arm's joystick....

jollyreaper: "As for crash emergencies, y...

2011-09-26T08:54:12.623-07:00
jollyreaper:

"As for crash emergencies, you can have it in two ways.

1) jump drives or wormholes. A quick way to add enemies to the mix with little warning. Writer's best friend."

If there's a possibility of running into BGs on the other side, you go to General Quarters before jumping or traversing the wormhole, as a matter of routine.

"2) local clutter. You can have a ton of ships on the scope with no indication that any are hostile until they start firing. Would be the consequence of operating in a very crowded environment. I've seen some nice simulations of this in navy games where you have a ton of neutrals and it becomes difficult to find the bad guy, even when you know there's one in the mission. In real life it would be worse since you'd be screening for months without even the guarantee of finding a bad guy. And then you're suddenly in a pants-shitting situation having to make the call before the ship is lost. Vincennes all over again."

Significantly, Vincennes was already at General Quarters and actively engages with Iranian patrol boats. Yes, the environment was confusing, but the crew were not in a scramble mode. Nor would they have been in somewhat altered circumstances, because at the time and place it was SOP to operate in Condition 3 -- half the weapons manned and ready. Even if the tracking and engagement of the airliner had triggered General Quarters, the people actually managing the engagement would have already been on post.

As for crash emergencies, you can have it in two w...

2011-09-26T07:50:04.896-07:00
As for crash emergencies, you can have it in two ways.

1) jump drives or wormholes. A quick way to add enemies to the mix with little warning. Writer's best friend.

2) local clutter. You can have a ton of ships on the scope with no indication that any are hostile until they start firing. Would be the consequence of operating in a very crowded environment. I've seen some nice simulations of this in navy games where you have a ton of neutrals and it becomes difficult to find the bad guy, even when you know there's one in the mission. In real life it would be worse since you'd be screening for months without even the guarantee of finding a bad guy. And then you're suddenly in a pants-shitting situation having to make the call before the ship is lost. Vincennes all over again.

Milo: "You just need to trade the panic f...

2011-09-26T07:33:09.771-07:00
Milo:

"You just need to trade the panic for nervousness and tension. Knowing that you've already made all possible preparations and it's still another half-hour before you'll be able to tell if they're enough to win the battle is pretty uncomfortable. I could imagine that having to wait at your battlestation well in advance even though there's no enemy within range yet is going to lead to a lot of fidgeting and quintuple-checking things."

Well...that's not quite right either. If you've set everything up right and double-checked, unless you're a sensor operator or on the bridge crew -- IOW, unless you have something constructive to do -- you tend to engage in whatever inane activity you tend to when you're bored. You could imagine guys in the missile magazine talking smack about who had the best girl on their last liberty. Or maybe you have a bunch of Marines in their berthing space playing cards and watching the game. Or you'll have guys like Corporal Hicks, who just sleep through it.

=Milo= Tony: "But inertia does matter ...

2011-09-25T12:30:17.707-07:00
=Milo=

Tony:

"But inertia does matter in aerodynamic maneuvering."

Oh, hmm. You said "Whether you use Hollywood (essentially aerodynamic) or Newtonian movement, flight is always affected by vectors.". Sorry, I didn't notice that "flight" there and thought you were talking about all vehicle movement in general.

"It's not that I don't comprehend the dramatic effect. It's just that there are rules to how you construct it. If you've been otherwise honest with the audience, and they know that a spacecraft crew has been tracking an enemy for hours or days, they're not going to accept the emergency treatment of going to battle stations, even in the name of drama. They're not stupid."

You just need to trade the panic for nervousness and tension. Knowing that you've already made all possible preparations and it's still another half-hour before you'll be able to tell if they're enough to win the battle is pretty uncomfortable. I could imagine that having to wait at your battlestation well in advance even though there's no enemy within range yet is going to lead to a lot of fidgeting and quintuple-checking things.

Scott, you're swinging after the bell. Soldier...

2011-09-25T09:28:02.808-07:00
Scott, you're swinging after the bell. Soldiers in the field stand-to at dawn (and sometimes at sunset). Ready interceptor aircraft are manned and ready to fly, sometimes for hours at a time. (And some guy's used to do it in partial pressure suits at least as uncomfortable as an full pressure skin suit.) And ships do go to battle stations in a scheduled, relatively relaxed manner when they know enemy contact is likely.

From the cinematic point of view, even an overdone piece of melodrama like Top Gun got this right. The crews were assembled and briefed well before the battle. Patrol aircraft were launched ahead of predicted enemy contact. The backup element was staged on the catapults with the crews aboard. Nobody whined or cried about how it sucks to sit around in a small cockpit, in a poopie suit an G harness. They just did their jobs. Hollywood can create drama without overdramatizing.

Got a couple points here. I *know* that some peop...

2011-09-25T00:42:20.152-07:00
Got a couple points here. I *know* that some people will complain about a rush to battlestations, when you've been tracking the target for hours/days.

counterpoint: Spacesuits are uncomfortable, bulky, and 'sucking rubber', well, sucks. Therefore, people will delay donning such protective equipment for as long as possible, and remove it ASAP.

All it will take is ONE guy bitching about how the skinsuit gives him a rash** and a 'tell me about it...' response, and you have set up a perfect reason for a tension increase by a scramble to get dressed for battlestations.

Total elapsed time in the movie for the setup: 3 seconds. How much is the dramatic tension increase worth?

**or similar complaint about uncomfortable gear.

Milo: "In settings where friction is high...

2011-09-24T16:05:41.976-07:00
Milo:

"In settings where friction is high enough that inertia doesn't carry over from turn to turn, though, vectors can be abstracted out of the game..."

But inertia does matter in aerodynamic maneuvering. In a zoom climb, for example, the aircraft trades the energy of forward motion for altitude in a way that could never be matched by engines alone in a lower angle of attack. And the gravity and drag vectors always apply. That's why the engines have to be running all of the time. It's all about vectors. And none of it can be abstracted out.

Even in space, the gravity vector always applies, as does the drag vector, close to planets with atmospheres. If there's any environment in which vectors are abstracted out, it's in a lot of space combat simulations.

Rick:

"True about aerodynamics, but I was asking about aviation = aircraft operation. I don't know if pilots and air controllers actually use the term, but my impression is that they do."

Well, the term is used by air traffic controllers in the sense of "vectoring" an aircraft towards a point in the sky or an airfield. But while ATCs may not give a crap about aerodynamic forces, all of the pilots I've known are serious as a heart attack about the cardinal aerodynamic forces. They may not always talk or think about them in terms of vectors, but they know that they are vectors that need to be balanced by their decisions in the air.

Scott:

"Scott said...
Well, as an aviation term, 'vector' means 'go this way' or more specifically 'steer this course'.

It's not the same meaning as the physics term.

My point about the crew suiting up for battlestations is that it gives you a scene you can work with and show a little scientific accuracy.

Besides, a lot of people have associated the General Alarm with a rise in tension. It's simply a dramatic device. Showing people lock down their crash cages is another point of tension increase. Then you can add some other 'events', including radiators ablating or whatever."

It's not that I don't comprehend the dramatic effect. It's just that there are rules to how you construct it. If you've been otherwise honest with the audience, and they know that a spacecraft crew has been tracking an enemy for hours or days, they're not going to accept the emergency treatment of going to battle stations, even in the name of drama. They're not stupid.

Well, as an aviation term, 'vector' means ...

2011-09-24T02:13:10.195-07:00
Well, as an aviation term, 'vector' means 'go this way' or more specifically 'steer this course'.

It's not the same meaning as the physics term.

My point about the crew suiting up for battlestations is that it gives you a scene you can work with and show a little scientific accuracy.

Besides, a lot of people have associated the General Alarm with a rise in tension. It's simply a dramatic device. Showing people lock down their crash cages is another point of tension increase. Then you can add some other 'events', including radiators ablating or whatever.

I'd LOVE to see some fused-quartz or even simple carbon radiators, chipped and pitted from combat. Nothing says 'well-used' like some parking lot rash. It's a simple visual trick, but it makes the whole world much more believable.

There was this great line from the Prince of Persia movie, about the costume designer by the actor playing the merchant. "She made this beautiful costume, and then did unholy things to it with a cheese grater! Now it doesn't feel like a costume, it feels like clothes I have owned for years."

Sometimes it's the little things that you don't even consciously see that are the biggest part of making the imaginary world of the movie real.

Lift, drag, thrust, and weight are all expresse...

2011-09-23T18:14:40.447-07:00
Lift, drag, thrust, and weight are all expressed as vectors in aerodynamic analysis.

True about aerodynamics, but I was asking about aviation = aircraft operation. I don't know if pilots and air controllers actually use the term, but my impression is that they do.

=Milo= Scott: "However, battlestations...

2011-09-23T14:07:24.355-07:00
=Milo=

Scott:

"However, battlestations suits would require better protection, since you're dealing with potentially hot shrapnel, so those suits would look more like the suits from the end of Alien3, if not the Debris Section suits from Planetes."

Anti-flash goggles are important, particularly if you're being attacked by lasers.

Tony:

"Whether you use Hollywood (essentially aerodynamic) or Newtonian movement, flight is always affected by vectors. The nature of the vectors is just different."

In settings where friction is high enough that inertia doesn't carry over from turn to turn, though, vectors can be abstracted out of the game. Most such games also allow you to turn halfway through your... err, turn (no pun intended), so you move in multiple directions in one turn. While technically the underlying physics still uses vectors, that is really not an intuitive way to understand what's going on.

There are situations where inertia needs to be taken even in ground vehicle simulations - a car race, for example. But tank wargames rarely care about such things.

Rick: "Is the aviation use of 'vector...

2011-09-23T10:04:57.816-07:00
Rick:

"Is the aviation use of 'vector' fully consistent with the mathematical usage?"

Entirely consistent. Lift, drag, thrust, and weight are all expressed as vectors in aerodynamic analysis. Go to Google Images and search on "aerodynamic forces" to see what I mean.

The term "trajectory" is even used, in this sense:

"the line the craft is travelling along"

"And I think its use in discussions here is influenced by 'vector movement' in space wargaming."

I've never really thought about it before, but that's a pretty poor term when you do think about it. Whether you use Hollywood (essentially aerodynamic) or Newtonian movement, flight is always affected by vectors. The nature of the vectors is just different.

"Loosely related, I remember being confused as a kid by reference to WW II fighters 'orbiting' a location, since I knew they were not capable of anything like orbital speed."

That's what happens with endlessly borrowed and repurposed terms. "Orbit" really just means something circular, as in your eye socket, an idealized circular orbit around a celestial body (which is mathematically just a special case of elipse), orbitting a point on the ground in aerial flight, etc.

"In military-setting stories, the 'new kid' trope is often more important for introducing the culture of the unit - introducing the technology is a side bennie.

For that matter, the coming-of-age trope applies this principle to human social life in general."

But do we have to be so formula in our pursuit of the bildungsroman?

Scott: "For cinematic effect, I would use...

2011-09-23T09:48:02.635-07:00
Scott:

"For cinematic effect, I would use visually-bright drives. That generally would mean that you're using carbon remass, though."

Actually, I'd probably go the Star Wars route and have reaction drives with very bright reaction chambers but no visible exhaust -- it's the one thing they got right.

"And that doesn't change the fact that the crew is NOT going to hang around partially suited up waiting for battle stations. suits are uncomfortable."

Not "hang around", but if you know when battle stations is scheduled, you avoid a lot of hassle by getting geared up and reporting to your station a few minutes early. We used to do that weekly on the Long Beach in the North Arabian Sea, for the scheduled GQ drill. In real combat operations, as I stated earlier, if you know when the enemy is coming -- and you will in space -- you do essentially the same thing. In 1942, during the Guadalcanal campaign, US Navy task force commanders were almost always alerted hours or more in advance of the approach of Japanese surface forces, thanks to efficient aerial reconnaissance. They carefully considered the time distance factors, Scheduled battle stations for a certain time, and the crews reacted as I described.

"For some eyecandy, I was going to propose skinsuits usually worn with a pair of coveralls over the top for modesty and sharp-edge protection. Seven of Nine in a .5mm drysuit, guys... Instant hollywood gratification that makes operational sense."

The skinsuit would be covered by an armored coverall. Not much eye candy there, unless you inserted a Verhoevenesque locker room scene.

"With all due respect, no thanks. 'The nuclear torpedo comes from a universal force that's all around us. You must learn to channel that force for Good...'

I mean simple explanations, like the one I've mentioned before from the Peacekeeper series: early in the story, the main character 'tch'es at a drive that shows a burst of light as it enters FTL, saying it's out of tune, wasting energy. Later on, that 'feature' of the FTL drive becomes rather important to the story.

I guess the humor was not as obvious as I thought it was...

In any case, the point I was making is that one has to find a way to get beyond the formula "Look boot, this is how it's done..." form of exposition.

"You don't have to do a Clancy/Dale Brown infodump to convey information, you know. In fact, I regard the Clancy infodump as poor storytelling. The Hammer's Slammers story I was referring to was 'Under the Hammer'"

That's not bad, but I think the Full Metal Jacket approach was better -- no explicit explanations, just show how it works, both in training and combat.

In military-setting stories, the 'new kid'...

2011-09-23T07:49:11.723-07:00
In military-setting stories, the 'new kid' trope is often more important for introducing the culture of the unit - introducing the technology is a side bennie.

For that matter, the coming-of-age trope applies this principle to human social life in general.

Is the aviation use of 'vector' fully cons...

2011-09-23T07:37:50.784-07:00
Is the aviation use of 'vector' fully consistent with the mathematical usage? And I think its use in discussions here is influenced by 'vector movement' in space wargaming.

Loosely related, I remember being confused as a kid by reference to WW II fighters 'orbiting' a location, since I knew they were not capable of anything like orbital speed.

An interesting point that Dave Drake made on...

2011-09-23T06:37:05.128-07:00
An interesting point that Dave Drake made once was that many stories have a very high learning curve attached to them, so a good storytelling feature could be to have a main character be the new kid, and getting checked out in all the stuff onboard.

With all due respect, no thanks. "The nuclear torpedo comes from a universal force that's all around us. You must learn to channel that force for Good..."

I mean simple explanations, like the one I've mentioned before from the Peacekeeper series: early in the story, the main character 'tch'es at a drive that shows a burst of light as it enters FTL, saying it's out of tune, wasting energy. Later on, that 'feature' of the FTL drive becomes rather important to the story.

You don't have to do a Clancy/Dale Brown infodump to convey information, you know. In fact, I regard the Clancy infodump as poor storytelling. The Hammer's Slammers story I was referring to was 'Under the Hammer', which you can read here: http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/15-WhentheTideRisesCD/WhentheTideRisesCD/The%20Tank%20Lords/The_Tank_Lords.htm

Vectors versus trajectories... oops. I meant to u...

2011-09-23T05:26:54.195-07:00
Vectors versus trajectories... oops. I meant to use 'trajectories,' even though DP9 used 'vectors' (probably in the aircraft sense).

For cinematic effect, I would use visually-bright drives. That generally would mean that you're using carbon remass, though.

And that doesn't change the fact that the crew is NOT going to hang around partially suited up waiting for battle stations. suits are uncomfortable.

For some eyecandy, I was going to propose skinsuits usually worn with a pair of coveralls over the top for modesty and sharp-edge protection. Seven of Nine in a .5mm drysuit, guys... Instant hollywood gratification that makes operational sense.

However, battlestations suits would require better protection, since you're dealing with potentially hot shrapnel, so those suits would look more like the suits from the end of Alien3, if not the Debris Section suits from Planetes.

Scott: "I was thinking a couple stock sce...

2011-09-22T07:48:24.146-07:00
Scott:

"I was thinking a couple stock scenes: one where someone floats down the hall pulling a combat suit on while the General Alarm gongs in the background (yup, bad hangover from the Navy), and then drops into their seat while a crash cage locks them in. Maybe a longer version where more of the crew is getting into their seats and locking in."

In my experience, if you know the enemy is coming, you go to General Quarters long before any possible contact. And in space, you'll know when and where contact is going to be made. Crewmembers know when the alarm is going to be sounded (it's announced well ahead of time, so everyone can get a good meal and take a good crap) and usually have their gear on and are at their stations 5-10 minutes previous. Reading history, that pretty standard.

"As far as visual effects, haven't we already determined that any drive with sufficient energy to be interesting would have a *very* bright plume?"

Only in certain parts of the EM spectrum, not necessarily in visible light.

"One interesting thought that came from Dream Pod 9's Jovian Chronicles setting was to actually have the vectors displayed on the tactical map like rails. I think this would be a great place for a big screen and 3d."

I can see projecting trajectories. But vectors are meaningless in themselves. At a minimum there's a velocity vector in three dimensions and a local gravity vector (WRT the ship), also in three dimensions. Add a constant propulsion vector, thanks to our operatic torch drives, and things get really interesting. Then even your trajectory projections are only good to the degree that you can update them in real time.

"An interesting point that Dave Drake made once was that many stories have a very high learning curve attached to them, so a good storytelling feature could be to have a main character be the new kid, and getting checked out in all the stuff onboard."

With all due respect, no thanks. "The nuclear torpedo comes from a universal force that's all around us. You must learn to channel that force for Good..."

What, no music? No way, I want my Hueys coming in...

2011-09-22T05:36:23.446-07:00
What, no music? No way, I want my Hueys coming in out of the rising sun, blaring Wagner at 180db to scare the crap out of Charlie!

The problem with a civilian 'vomit comet' is that you actually need a pretty big bird. I think the smallest you could get away with would be a 727/737, although a C130 would also work (and would likely be cheaper).

I'd still love to see more zero-gee events, though. I was thinking a couple stock scenes: one where someone floats down the hall pulling a combat suit on while the General Alarm gongs in the background (yup, bad hangover from the Navy), and then drops into their seat while a crash cage locks them in. Maybe a longer version where more of the crew is getting into their seats and locking in. The second would be a bit more problematic, since I'd like to do some zero-gee damage control events. Fires should scare the crap out of people in a sealed environment, and would seem to be likely when you're throwing high-megawatts around for punctuation.

As far as visual effects, haven't we already determined that any drive with sufficient energy to be interesting would have a *very* bright plume?

One interesting thought that came from Dream Pod 9's Jovian Chronicles setting was to actually have the vectors displayed on the tactical map like rails. I think this would be a great place for a big screen and 3d.

An interesting point that Dave Drake made once was that many stories have a very high learning curve attached to them, so a good storytelling feature could be to have a main character be the new kid, and getting checked out in all the stuff onboard.

=Milo= Tony: "I expect that in the fut...

2011-09-14T08:22:51.656-07:00
=Milo=

Tony:

"I expect that in the future, no matter where man goes, or what he sees and does, there will always be people who at least relatively (and quite probably absolutely) live what many will call impoverished lives."

Yup, though I expect the absolutely impoverished lives would mostly be in "third-world countries" that lack the infrastructure of more developed places.

I don't think complete equality between everyone is an attainable goal (short of having everyone be equally miserable), but we can try to raise the minimum standards of life that even the poor can count on having. Will they still gripe about being poor? Sure. But then, even the rich find things to complain about.

Damien Sullivan: "Why does a society whic...

2011-09-13T15:42:44.400-07:00
Damien Sullivan:

"Why does a society which can send people to the Moon and fight wars across the globe and export food, have people living in slums and impoverished reservations, or in no homes at all and hungry?"

A rising tide lifts all boats? ;-)

Actually, in all seriousness, there is some validity to that -- what we call "poverty" in the US is only poor relative to the North American standard. Compared to some truly desperate places one can go on this Earth, a Navajo living in a hogan -- with TV, a cell phone, and a beat up Chevy pickup, and plenty of cheap, what-sheltered-busybodies-would-call-"unhealthy" food -- is living an enviable life.

I expect that in the future, no matter where man goes, or what he sees and does, there will always be people who at least relatively (and quite probably absolutely) live what many will call impoverished lives.

Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Will Hollywood Ever Be Accurate About Space?

My apologies for letting this lie for so long. As...

I for one welcome our new alien overlords.

This http://lablemminglounge.blogspot.com/2011/09/...

Being woken from a deep sleep by a klackson going ...

The only unscheduled emergency that would leave a ...

jollyreaper: "As for crash emergencies, y...

As for crash emergencies, you can have it in two w...

Milo: "You just need to trade the panic f...

=Milo= Tony: "But inertia does matter ...

Scott, you're swinging after the bell. Soldier...

Got a couple points here. I know that some peop...

Milo: "In settings where friction is high...

Well, as an aviation term, 'vector' means ...

Lift, drag, thrust, and weight are all expresse...

=Milo= Scott: "However, battlestations...

Rick: "Is the aviation use of 'vector...

Scott: "For cinematic effect, I would use...

In military-setting stories, the 'new kid'...

Is the aviation use of 'vector' fully cons...

An interesting point that Dave Drake made on...

Vectors versus trajectories... oops. I meant to u...

Scott: "I was thinking a couple stock sce...

What, no music? No way, I want my Hueys coming in...

=Milo= Tony: "I expect that in the fut...

Damien Sullivan: "Why does a society whic...