tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post1196601174267975059..comments2024-03-19T00:19:09.117-07:00Comments on Rocketpunk Manifesto: Continuing Mission: Year FiveRickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comBlogger197125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-42179285809122477772021-07-09T07:02:06.575-07:002021-07-09T07:02:06.575-07:00"Remember what I said near the beginning -- t..."Remember what I said near the beginning -- the two possible futures of genetic engineering are medical therapy or eugenic shenanigans."<br /><br />Why would it be either-or?<br /><br />Since it's now been attempted to medically edit human genes, it was also claimed by the same doctor that it would increase their intelligence. So we got an unholy mix of motives and claims (still unproven). <br /><br />The public outrage and backlash has shown that most people object to the concept. A handful were fascinated. But generational attitudes can change radically in a few decades. Who knows, but it's good fodder for SF to imagine.<br /><br />One thing's for sure, there will be attempts to create supermen, and the majority of early tries will fail and/or have disastrous side effects. We'll be altering our own evolution in unforeseeable ways. But I have no doubt we will do so anyway, humans are reckless and short-sighted. And that biotech genie's already out of the bottle.Saint Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-28298421511458093412013-05-25T10:57:51.515-07:002013-05-25T10:57:51.515-07:00Are there readers lurking among the lurkers who ha...<i>Are there readers lurking among the lurkers who have a biology background, and can provide more informed comment?</i><br /><br />I don't have credentials in biology but I have followed some of the debate on this topic in scientific circles.<br /><br />Both amino acids (the building blocks for proteins) and sugars (the building blocks for energy storage) have chiralty (sp?) - meaning handedness. On the surface it looks like even if a planet evolved to use identical chemicals as the Earth, there would still only be a 50/50 chance of our biology being compatible!<br /><br />However, recent astronomical evidence indicates the handedness that we see on Earth may be a result of photochemical processes during planet formation. Meaning other life bearing planets would likely have the same handedness as that found on Earth ... interesting.<br /><br />Also I read recently that of the 50 or so amino acids most commonly found in comet nuclei, life on Earth uses 47 (or 48). I'm not sure on the numbers but is something like this ratio.<br /><br />Meaning life on another planet is also very likely to use almost all of the same amino acids as terrestrial life.<br /><br />However, what are the chances that it would use the same sugars as us for energy storage? What are the chances that this life would use those same 47 building blocks to build the same proteins? What are the chances that life on another planet would use DNA to transmit genetic information? What are the chances that alien animal life would use the same fat molecules as us for longer-term storage of energy?<br /><br />I don't know. I assume that the best we could hope for is that we could get some nutrients from life on another world but that at a minimum we would need both artificial enzymes to aid in digestion AND supplements to fill the necessary but missing compounds we need.<br /><br />This might even be a neat niche to explore in story form (crash survivors trying to make due on food collected from an alien biosphere).Jim2Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13926368791623148384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-32419094232886812182011-05-23T12:32:28.390-07:002011-05-23T12:32:28.390-07:00Tony: thanks!
FerrellTony: thanks!<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-43724188001506901602011-05-23T10:44:01.408-07:002011-05-23T10:44:01.408-07:00Ferrell:
"Speaking of genetic mods...has any...Ferrell:<br /><br /><i>"Speaking of genetic mods...has anyone here read Dr. Seuss' story about those birds, some of whom have stars on their bellies and some who did not? I can't remember the name of the story, but it fits right in with this topic..."</i><br /><br />"The Sneetches"Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-25223251304905214612011-05-21T11:02:10.066-07:002011-05-21T11:02:10.066-07:00Speaking of genetic mods...has anyone here read Dr...Speaking of genetic mods...has anyone here read Dr. Seuss' story about those birds, some of whom have stars on their bellies and some who did not? I can't remember the name of the story, but it fits right in with this topic...<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-8468275542015285802011-05-11T16:22:36.042-07:002011-05-11T16:22:36.042-07:00I would imagine that the marker for exclusivity wo...I would imagine that the marker for exclusivity would be what mods are chosen. Think back to your misspent youth, when people were converging in cliques based on musical choice. There were Punks, Goths, New Romantics, Shoegazers, EMOs; followers of Grunge, Speed Metal, Thrash and ever more obscure sub cults (anyone remember "Straight Edge"?).<br /><br />Now you would have Elves, Cat people, Greek Heros, Aquamen and women, Giants, Superbrights...It would make high school seem like the model of peace, love and understanding.<br /><br />Since most mods would be part of a package, you could potentially score on a percentage basis (Greek Demi-god with 25% Giant and 10% Superbright? You've got to be kidding us, freak! Only 50% or more Giant genes wanted here!).<br /><br />We discussed other markers for exclusivity and wealth in post scarcity economies and societies, time, attention and bandwidth seemed to be the limiting factors (i.e. a really rich of famous person would never be able to answer all the emails sent to them), which might suggest that Superbrights who could process large quantities of information faster would have a large advantage in that sort of societyThucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-19609774315916369672011-05-11T13:04:37.628-07:002011-05-11T13:04:37.628-07:00Jollyreaper:
I'm pretty sure that genetic eng...Jollyreaper:<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that genetic engineering alone is not going to create a post-scarcity society. Some people are still going to have more money than others.<br /><br />If advanced genetic treatments are very expensive, then possessing the most expensive genes could be a mark of status. But like I said, I think that cosmetic changes will be cheaper than not-outwardly-visible stuff like immortality. And the cost of genetic engineering will go down as it becomes better understood - again, much like with programming, I expect that developing a new gene will be far more costly than installing an existing design into an embryo.<br /><br />If cosmetic genetic engineering is cheap enough that middle-class people can afford whatever they want, then appearance will not be linked to wealth, so there is going to be a major question of personal taste.<br /><br />Also remember that some elements of beauty are directly linked to health. Which means that, technically, they're more than cosmetic. Perhaps a discount elf ear mod works fine as long as you're gentle with them, but scar easily, while the deluxe mod can regenerate them perfectly even if you cut them off. Being in a visible state of excellent health would imply you probably have high-grade genes.<br /><br /><br /><i>"If everyone looks perfect, what sort of scarcity will we fall back on? Personality?"</i><br /><br />Which raises the question of: if you could pick the personalities of your kids (at least in the broad strokes), what would you pick? Is it wise to meddle in this at all rather than letting personalities develop organically?<br /><br />I think there is no one personality of which you could say that the human species would be better off if we were all that way.Milonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-64297559321046122212011-05-11T12:28:46.469-07:002011-05-11T12:28:46.469-07:00You do have to wonder what will become the marker ...You do have to wonder what will become the marker of exclusivity once everyone is one of the beautiful people. Used to be that being pale was a sign of attractiveness because most people lived outdoors. Now it's being tan because only the idle rich can afford to play outside in the sun. Being fat used to be a sign of wealth; not it means you're poor and can't afford decent food and time for exercise. If everyone looks perfect, what sort of scarcity will we fall back on? Personality? I'm assuming intelligence can be gengineered as well so really, what sort of artificial barrier can be invented so that only the rich people have it? I'm guessing it'll be something that's just plain snobbery. A group of people get together and put up a velvet rope. We're the only ones allowed on this side. If you try really hard we might invite one or two of you. Now we just have to hope everyone else gets intrigued with how it's like on the other side. <br /><br />It's interesting to see how the social cliques work when wealth is no longer the major status determinant.jollyreaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05673007647719726846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-81297630870692272882011-05-11T10:49:17.719-07:002011-05-11T10:49:17.719-07:00CNN 2075 news story "Today, both the Health D...CNN 2075 news story "Today, both the Health Department and SEC announced that they are investigating Cat mods by FurfurU Corp. for violations the Universal Industrial Genetics Compatibility and Safty Code (UIGCSC). Violations include nondisclosure of enheiratability of engineered genetic traits and increased susptability of Gonzo's Syndrome, a personality disorder. FurfurU officials declined to respond to our inquries for comment."<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-91464630893658763662011-05-10T22:08:25.617-07:002011-05-10T22:08:25.617-07:00Thucydides:
"The market for catgirls and boy...Thucydides:<br /><br /><i>"The market for catgirls and boys may be overshadowed by the market for Elves or Hobbits."</i><br /><br />Elves means two things. First it means immortality/eternal youth, which presumably everyone will want if it's possible at all. Secondly it means pointy ears, which I can see some people wanting, whether because they want to be elves, or vulcans, or whatever. Pointy ears are very common in fiction. But they seem like a pretty minor tweak - at a distance or if covered by hair you might not even be able to tell if a person has the pointy ears gene. Oh wait, and elves also have the "little body hair" thing, but that too falls under the generic beauty package I outlined above. I expect you will see far more round-eared "elves", while only the die-hard fans include the pointy ears mutation.<br /><br />Now hobbits are a more complicated matter. Such a huge size reduction is going to have consequences that go far beyond aesthetics. It might have some good consequences, like needing less food and making better use of the space in a cheap apartment, but it will definitely have quite a few bad ones, if only due to the cultural environment - it'll be hard to use equipment sized for normal humans, reach high shelves (or even normal tables), etc. And there's a question of just how far the human body can be scaled down without health problems. Tolkinian hobbits are supposed to average 3'6". This is remarkably close to Homo floresiensis, but is quite low for any member of Homo sapiens, where even pygmy populations can be expected to average something more like 4'6". Dating prospects are also going to be tricky when you can't see face-to-face with most of the populace.<br /><br /><br /><i>"The base market will be for general improvements, while higher margins will be found in detailed or intricate changes and cosmetics."</i><br /><br />Not necessarily. Coding for pointy ears is probably easier than coding for immortality. Purely aesthetic changes may well become the genetic engineer's equivalent of parlor tricks, something relatively easy that you do to show off and attract customers for your more expensive products. A genetic engineer might dedicate his life's work to researching major changes out of an interest in advancing science and improving the human condition, while meanwhile selling cosmetic changes in order to pay the bills.<br /><br /><br /><i>"One complicating factor will be if the changes can be passed on through the generations, or how the various mods would interact. Would cat like vision need two parents with cat eyes? What about one parent with cat like agility and another with super strength?"</i><br /><br />That depends on how the genes are programmed. It is quite possible that if we have the ability to code for things like cat vision at all, then we will also be able to fine-tune how the genes work reproductively (decide whether they're dominant or recessive, place them into a convenient spot relative to the baseline human genome where they won't disrupt anything, etc.)<br /><br />However I can also see some transhumans being so heavily engineered that they are no longer genetically compatible with normal humans, and need artificial genetic engineering aid to reproduce (which, however, by that time will be readily available). They might even be completely sterile without artificially engineering their babies, but that would suggest shoddy programming on the part of who designed their genes.<br /><br />I can also see genes from different companies not playing nice with each other, and ISO scrambling to develop some sort of universal compatibility standards...Milonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-61295456384798998172011-05-10T20:32:38.315-07:002011-05-10T20:32:38.315-07:00The market for catgirls and boys may be overshadow...The market for catgirls and boys may be overshadowed by the market for Elves or Hobbits. I would imagine Arwen Eveningstar is idolized by at least as many people as catgirls are...<br /><br />Like other markets there will be multiple and overlapping niches to be filled. The base market will be for general improvements, while higher margins will be found in detailed or intricate changes and cosmetics.<br /><br />One complicating factor will be if the changes can be passed on through the generations, or how the various mods would interact. Would cat like vision need two parents with cat eyes? What about one parent with cat like agility and another with super strength?Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-54583859233777336102011-05-10T20:27:10.781-07:002011-05-10T20:27:10.781-07:00Ok...if you want to be P.C. about it...Cat People ...Ok...if you want to be P.C. about it...Cat People and Dog People. Flying around in atomic rockets...<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-3453344831425012452011-05-10T12:49:25.003-07:002011-05-10T12:49:25.003-07:00I prefer cats for both genders. Other people are ...I prefer cats for both genders. Other people are bound to like dogs more.<br /><br />I'm sure that if genetic engineering becomes widespread, you're going to see a lot of conflicting ideas and heated arguments about what a "proper" catgirl should look like. (Fur? No fur? Ears on top or on the side? How about paws?)Milonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-78730831191729545762011-05-10T12:33:01.271-07:002011-05-10T12:33:01.271-07:00Ferrell:
"So, in the future we will have ato...Ferrell:<br /><br /><i>"So, in the future we will have atomic rocket ships manned by <b>cat girls and dog boys</b>? Or will "real" humans be leaving Earth to live somewhere where there aren't any..."</i><br /><br />Now <i><b>that</b></i>'s sexist. Why not cat boys and dog girls?Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-6670508854934615112011-05-10T12:22:33.936-07:002011-05-10T12:22:33.936-07:00So, in the future we will have atomic rocket ships...So, in the future we will have atomic rocket ships manned by cat girls and dog boys? Or will "real" humans be leaving Earth to live somewhere where there aren't any...<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-58541183645548966242011-05-10T11:44:38.210-07:002011-05-10T11:44:38.210-07:00Thucydides:
"Beauty (either general like sym...Thucydides:<br /><br /><i>"Beauty (either general like symmetry of as defined by whatever group you belong to)."</i><br /><br />Probably the best route here is preservation of youthful appearance into old age - preservation of skin against wrinkles, no baldness, etc. Conveniently, this would probably go hand-in-hand with improved health and possible even immortality, since you're staying in your prime of life.<br /><br />Less universal ideas would be getting rid of hair in undesirable places. Opinions on beards vary - in some cultures people go to great lengths to get rid of them, but in other cultures they're seen as a sign of manliness. Leg hair, body hair, armpit hair, etc. are more widely reviled, though you'll surely find exceptions.<br /><br />Some people will probably try to genetically code for slim bodies, but that's not such a good idea to me - even aside from Western standards of beauty not being universal and many people thinking fat people can be attractive, sabotaging the digestive system's ability to keep fat reserves could lead to health detriments.<br /><br />Finally you have "niche" beauty traits like the aforementioned cat ears, which appeal to a certain segment of the populace while looking weird to others. Your possession of these being at the whims of your parents rather than yourself could turn ugly quickly (pun intended).Milonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-36344648514485094052011-05-10T10:59:02.141-07:002011-05-10T10:59:02.141-07:00Thucydides:
"While there may be a niche mar...Thucydides:<br /> <br /><i>"While there may be a niche market for genetically engineered cat ears..."</i> <br /><br />Furry fantasies, elevated to reality -- the horror, the horror...Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-91892252041919592942011-05-10T09:32:06.925-07:002011-05-10T09:32:06.925-07:00While there may be a niche market for genetically ...While there may be a niche market for genetically engineered cat ears, I would think that the biggest portion of the market would be for things that would be recognized as "upgrades".<br /><br />Greater intelligence.<br />Better health, either resistance to disease or the ability to avoid degenerative diseases.<br />Beauty (either general like symmetry of as defined by whatever group you belong to).<br />Faster reflexes or enhanced athletic ability.<br /><br />People will be willing to pay a lot to get these attributes or get them for their children; people who are unable to get them will find the bell curve moving to the right and leaving them behind, and unenhanced children will find they are living in an increasingly difficult world where they have fewer opportunities or the ability to get ahead.<br /><br />So people may be confused or amused at some aspects of genetic engineering, but when it impacts their own interests they won't be amused at all.Thucydideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09828932214842106266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-35912142827685822422011-05-09T15:52:09.378-07:002011-05-09T15:52:09.378-07:00Consider this quote: "People think that our b...Consider this quote: <i>"People think that our body has limitation, however just imagine if we have organs that doesn’t exist, moreover we can control that new body?"</i><br /> <br />Science fiction ranter? Genetic upgrade enthusiast? Nope, I found that on a <a href="http://neurowear.net/" rel="nofollow">commercial website</a>.<br /> <br />Only it's a company making fashion accessories that read your mind, which should be SFnal enough for anyone without getting random transhumanist proposals into the mix. The company, Neurowear, has robotic cat ears that are supposed to monitor the brainwaves of the wearer and move up or down to send social signals - to people who'd rather deal with cats, perhaps.<br /> <br />A <a href="http://technabob.com/blog/2011/05/05/negomimi-mind-controlled-cat-ears/" rel="nofollow">review</a> on technabob seemed more perplexed than offended, much like <a href="http://scott-sanford.livejournal.com/13949.html" rel="nofollow">my response</a>; this suggests that outre' genetic upgrades will meet confusion and skepticism rather than lynch mobs.Scotthttp://scott-sanford.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-35688771428034842072011-05-09T08:55:06.816-07:002011-05-09T08:55:06.816-07:00Milo:
"Wouldn't that make it worse?
If ...Milo:<br /><br /><i>"Wouldn't that make it worse?<br /><br />If they have arranged marriages, then finding a spouse for your child isn't his problem, it's your problem."</i><br /><br />One has to remember that the motivation to abort girls in India is that they cost the parents to get them married off. Dowry for even one girl can wipe out an entire family's savings. Sons, on the other hand, bring in dowry and have strong backs to keep the parents fed when they get old. Dowry isn't so much an issue in China, but strong sons are the only social security most Chinese families have.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-78095843023228977002011-05-08T09:17:55.452-07:002011-05-08T09:17:55.452-07:00If they have arranged marriages, then finding a sp...<i>If they have arranged marriages, then finding a spouse for your child isn't his problem, it's your problem.</i><br /><br />True! But these transactions are uncommon enough in any given family that people probably aren't too sensitive to market signals, and take for granted that having a son in the market will always be the advantage 'the way it has always been.'Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-66495668872832021702011-05-07T20:25:46.314-07:002011-05-07T20:25:46.314-07:00Thucydides:"with little of no thought that in...Thucydides:"with little of no thought that in 18 years young Chen or Raj is going to find it a bit hard to get a date..."<br /><br />Unless it is a sinester plot by shadowy conspirators to bring down the population to managable levels...;0<br /><br />FerrellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-55580060610896237212011-05-07T11:19:15.526-07:002011-05-07T11:19:15.526-07:00Rick:
"Not to mention that these cultures ha...Rick:<br /><br /><i>"Not to mention that these cultures have a tradition of arranged marriages."</i><br /><br />Wouldn't that make it worse?<br /><br />If they have arranged marriages, then finding a spouse for your child isn't his problem, it's your problem.Milonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-10741240047799581522011-05-07T10:47:20.564-07:002011-05-07T10:47:20.564-07:00Tony -
It's reported that Osama bin Ladin, wh...Tony -<br /><br /><i>It's reported that Osama bin Ladin, when seaking out his youngest wife, required that his agent choose a girl who was "calm" and "quiet". Maybe you've never been married, but to a man that has been, that speaks volumes about who was running that household.</i><br /><br />Wow, Osama as henpecked husband working out his frustrations. Sort of puts Walter Mitty in a whole new perspective.<br /><br /><br />Thucydides -<br /><br /><i>with little of no thought that in 18 years young Chen or Raj is going to find it a bit hard to get a date...</i><br /><br />Not to mention that these cultures have a tradition of arranged marriages. So parents are not 'culturally coded' to think about their kids' future dating prospects.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7494544263897150929.post-45681780558206624242011-05-06T17:21:06.571-07:002011-05-06T17:21:06.571-07:00Milo said: "You know, it occurs to me that ge...Milo said: "You know, it occurs to me that gender dimorphism is one of the things that some people might try to get rid of if they had access to genetic engineering. Oh sure, we'll keep the boobs, but I imagine a lot of people wanting give their daughter a little extra size.)"<br /><br />However, there seems to be some evidence that shorter people live longer. Maybe we would want to make the sons smaller. Though given the social advantages of greater height, that would be a hard sell.<br /><br />Re: skewed sex ratios. Have any of the countries where this is becoming a problem started a propaganda campaign on the theme of "If you want grandchildren in a few decades, have a daughter now."?Jim Baergnoreply@blogger.com